Funny, how people find themselves able to judge and foresee the worldwide freeware scene.Freeware with all the connected enthusiasm makes friendships. This is not just a simple saying, is it really true (personal experience). Are all Payware developers happy having exchanged that with a company/customer relationship with all the consequences ? Who knows :DMichael

It seems to me that part of the problem in this debate is the fact that there is this romantic notion of freeware to begin with. The truth of the matter is that none of us has any special entitlement to free stuff. The notion that payware developers are "killing" freeware seems to me to be hopelessly misguided becuase it so completely ignores the likely possibility that a move towards more commercial developers simply represents the natural progression of the hobby as it matures. The level of complexity and cost in hours needed to produce a complete package (speaking mostly of planes here) has reached a point I think where there just isn't that many people capable of doing it for free. There is nothing at all stopping a person from simply doing what he can and releasing a freeware plane that may be missing elements or have a less fully realized model or flight dynamic or whatever, but that person has to realize that while people may offer him tons of kudos for the effort, they may also choose not to d/l it or if they do, not to really use it much. That is just reality. If the author decides to take that as a slap in the face and refuses to carry on, well thats too bad, but again that's life. Like most of us, I consider freeware a gift and I take pains to not be ungrateful. But the reality is I'm not in this to provide a support network for freeware devs who've had their feelings hurt. I want the products to continue improving - more realism, more complexity, more accurate systems, etc - and if the work involved in doing so requires that developers charge for the effort, I will gladly pay the fee - assuming I am interested in the specific product and I feel the price is fair.

As I mentioned in another forum recently, I'm an ex-Wargamer. There's a reason why that "ex" is there and it has a

Ernie, I fully appreciate your point in sales volume. But you have to ask.... why is there such a huge disproportion? Is it marketing? They have cut the price of the sim several times since it was released. I would think that if MS sold a million copies of FS then shouldn't you be able to attract at least a quarter of those customers to enhance their simulator experience. There is a fine line between a price that produces profit through volume and one that produces profit through covering overhead by x percentage. Since most payware is a downloadable product and does not have the cd manufacture and packaging costs I would think that your profit would be on the volume end. Does payware have a marketing problem or is there something else I don't understand? By the way, your FSBuild is an add on that I own and enjoy and i've recommended it many times. Will

It has also always been the right of the customer to complain about the price has it not? But honestly, payware had/has a small customer base and jacking up prices will NOT produce an increase in sales volume. In fact volume will most likely drop making any profit margin in this small market even smaller. Maybe some of the developers should take a business basics class.Will

My belief is we see these threads pop up whenever a new product seems to cross that imaginable "bar" on cost, whatever that may be. (I recall a big tadoo on Ariane when they crossed the $100.00 mark for a single aircraft or when Switzerland Pro came out).Ariane did lose me as a customer and as their prices escalate even further to make up for the volume loss....... If they are still in business a year from now I'll be amazed. I never even considered Switzerland Pro as a purchase. I got a huge belly laugh out of it though when I saw what price they were asking. I'm sure all 10 customers really enjoy these products.Will

I appreciate the freeware folks and even if I don't like their product I just delete it. You won't find a single complaint of mine in any forum about a freeware product.Will

I really like PMDG's approach of having a separate "Economy" line of products. I just hope they have more than one aircraft in the Express line in the not-too-distant future. The B1900 has quickly become one of my favorite aircraft. Personally, I have no desire to pay extra for a full-featured FMC that will take me more free time to learn than I have available. I'd rather be flying.

>>You can also buy the ENTIRE Program for less than an>evening>>out...">>I think the other problem with that comparision is people>don't see MSFS as the bargain that it is. MSFS is priced as it>is because MS can sell close to a million units.>I disagree with that. Unless you can show us some sales figures from Microsoft. And you fail to mention that just about every other Computer Game sells for about the same amount. I am tired of that analogy, because the eving out theory is brought out every single time this discussion comes up. It is irrelevant to the topic, and is a diversionary attempt to quell discussion, IMHO. And that is my opinion, and I see right through that argument. Maybe others do as well.>The add-on market is a very very small market, it represents>only a small portion of the MSFS customers. The unit sales of>add-ons are very very low compared to what MS sells.And I disagree with that as well. How many Add-on companies have released sales figures, costs, Tax Returns, salaries, commissions? Any? You say they are very low, prove that claim, as it is unsubstantiated as well. I could just as soon say some of these developers are making hundreds of Thousands of dollars profit allowing them to buy personal aircraft and sail on cruise ships around the world at leisure. Now do I think that is true. Who Knows, as whenever this conversation comes up, the same argument is laid out by someone who supports developers NO MATTER WHAT, using the same arguments they have used for years to quell discussion by poeple like myself and others. Maybe that argument works for some, but I am not buying it, and I suspect many others are not buying either. Whenever a developer, or beta tester, moderator, etc... makes that claim, it is a Conflict of Interest, and needs to be taken in that way. Some say developers have no obligation to show us anything. True, but then they all should not claim the same arguments regarding development costs, low profits, etc, without evidence. If they or tehir supporters do, it is 100% SUSPECT, and I won't buy anything from those who continue to make those outrageous types of claims.Oh the poor developer, with small sales volume, and huge costs can barely squeeze out any money at all. Yet they don't seem to have any problems selling everything in sight, do they?And that doesn't seem to stop all the new developers from selling all kinds of new things.You would think with your gloom and doom of sales and small profits in payware, that no one would be doing it. Odd isn't it, that you say they make such small profits, yet there are so many, hmmmm....>>The small add-on market means small profit margins and thus>the reason for the high price of payware add-ons compared to>the price of the full sim. >You call it small profit margins, PROVE IT. What is your basis for that claim. It is a fallacy to think all these add-on companies do this for only small profits. If you expect us to believe that, please try again. That is an assumption on your part, and one which I believe you cannot PROVE.I think some of these may be making money hand over fist, but I can't prove that either, but you seem to know all about Microsoft's sales, and all the add-on developers sales figures, and small profits.Please....>If add-ons were priced at $10 each as some people seem to>think is fair, those add-ons likely wouldn't be produced at>all. It simply would not be worth the trouble, at that price.>>Regards.>Ernie.>You don't know that either. if one sells at $30.00, and sells 10,000 Units, that is $300,000.00. 10,000 Units is only 1% of your GUESS at a Million MSFS sold. Surely 1% is a small figure as to the total, whatever that total is. Are all developer worker bees paid upfront to justify the cost of development, or are they paid after release based upon volume, and yes, Profit. Show me developers who have released that information, please. I don't think you can. maybe at $10.00, they sell 40,000 units thus making $100,000 more than at the higher overpriced price point. And that would be only 4% of a hypothetical MSFS market.Now some developer will come on here whining that they wish my example of sales figures were true. And I will come back and say Prove they are not.You see, these payware developers just expect us to trust them when they whine about their costs, and lack of profits, etc....Sorry, but I dont trust anyone on the internet unless they are willing to prove it with evidence. The Truth is a powerful tool.You have used nothing but Guessing, and conjecture to opine about these poor, poor, payware developers. they keep using the same arguments about developing add-ons for years, and we the consumers are just supposed to trust them, right? Well, no, we don't have to trust them. And we don't have to buy from them either.Well, I say it is hightime to prove these fallacies once and for all.If you want us to continue to believe what you write with no evidence, I am way past that point. Those words are Hollow, IMHO, and only go as far as the keyboard. So I guess I am calling you out on your claims.The ball is in your and the other developers court now.Regards,Joe

Hi all, let me participate into this discussion.I want to say that I can understand why payware gets more expensive, the time that the developer spent on the product is to compensate for. The more features, complexity of an addon, it will cost more time to develop that, hence a payware author have the right to decide on the price.The option to buy or not to buy is in our hands. If we find it too pricey, we can always find a freeware alternatives, well mostly, but there are goods that freeware have, that paywares don't have.For me having to repaint various of excellent freeware models earned me a words of great appreciation via emails or direct replies, I made friends, get to know fellow painters and etc, it's just wonderful and since I am doing it for free, I can paint whatever I want, if I want to create aircraft, I can have or not have features, basically it's what in my mind that will decide the complexity of my own free product.While payware....read below:People demands quality, features for the money they pay on the product they buy. Therefore they demand the payware developer to step on their foot and make the buyer pleased with the features and etc, time consumed on the product makes the developer increase the price and that's what happen, more people demands more features and don't expect the price of the product will be low.The complexity of the payware product gets more and more everyday, since this is a simulation, we cannot get it to as real as the real thing. Even PMDG Boeing 737 NG cannot be as real as the real thing, FS got it's limitation. For me playing FS is a hobby and I don't really like complex stuff. The more the complexity of the stuff, the more money I also need to spend on getting new stuff to make the product as real as I can get it to be. I may not explain it well, but imagine if you buy PMDG 737 NG for example, you only have just the minimum specification to run PMDG 737 NG, when you use the product you find the performance is not good, you tried your best to adjust settings, but it won't do much. The only option is to get a new hardware and again money needed to be spent for that. The more complexity of the product, it demands more out of your PC. I just realised I've spent too much on my computer already, still the performance not what I want, that's fine, my current computer will do for another 2 years or more, unless I find it slower and if there's a chance to upgrade, considering I will need it or not, if I need it, I'll upgrade, but for now I am just happy with the way my system running.I am happy with freeware and will stay with freeware, but maybe someday I treat myself some payware products, I just need to work really hard to buy the things I want and one of them is getting myself a copy of PMDG 737 NG :(That's all I want to say, basically people, if you demand more features, more complexity in a payware product, expect the price to go up, don't be selfish to yourself by not thinking the time these developer develop the product, the trials and errors they perform, the testing they perform, the stress they experienced from developing the product. I am a web programmer/programmer myself, so I can understand.Thanks and sorry if any of my words offend you in any way, rest assure, I don't mean it, I am just participating in what I think.

Not only is it the cost that gets me, it is the fact that it may or may not be compatable with the next version of flight sim.With my current addons and FS9, I have reached a point I think that I will not be going on to FS10. I have spent too much time and money getting FS9 to where it is. When FS10 or 11 becomes the next greatest thing, and people stop talking about FS9, that is when I will fade into the distance and continue to enjoy what I have.:DAs I get older, I realize there are more important things in life than FS.

Here's an exact figure for you. I bought an add-on from a well known developer a short while ago (a piece of scenery) and was their 103rd customer for it via their online site. The scenery has been out for several weeks.No, I will not name names, but what I will say is this:Few customers who buy FS buy add-ons. Fewer still of these people buy their add-ons online. The view of people who frequent sites like Avsim et al is skewed, because all you meet on here are people who like to enhance their simulation experience and, hence get add-ons. Even in high street shops, add-ons do not exactly fly off the shelves in droves. When was the last time you heard of a store opening at midnight on the day of release to sell an add-on or, for that matter, even FS itself? It happens regularly for "main stream" game releases these days.I know a few commercial developers personally. I don't know any that are driving new cars, let alone new luxury cars, purely because of their FS sales. Actually, thinking about it, I don't know a single one for whom FS Addons are their sole income - their day job pays the mortgage every time!Ian P.

You don't know for fact you were the 103rd Customer. That is your opinion, but far from factual, IMHO. And you other point about few people buying add-ons. That is also not factual as you can't prove that with known sales figures, because they have not been released.Yeah, Ok, we'll just trust what you say is true, and move on, no evidence necessary.Sorry, reality does not work that way, Ian. Anytime I see anonymous sources, and no names, it is suspect and holds zero credibility, zero, in my book. Maybe that is good enough for you that you think you are number 103, but that is simply your opinion and unless you have a title and aspeak for the company, I am not beleieving it.Who's the Company Ian? What is the scenery, Ian? Maybe it is the case, they are a small company, but if it is scenery, is all their data freely available to create it? Is the software tools used to compile it Freeware as well?Regards,Joe

**Original reply deleted**I have deleting this reply because, having read you other posts here and elsewhere, I am convinced that you are only here to argue and accuse everyone of bias because it fits your agenda.I am not rising to the bait and this is my last response to you.Ian P.

IMO, the increased price of payware as well as the shrinking number of quality freeware releases can be explained by the increasing omplexity of the sim and the hardware it runs on. People just expect more out of a payware aircraft or scenery now than they did from something from the early days of FS2002.That said, I don't think more than about $40 is reasonable for one aircraft addon. That's because virtually all addon aircraft, no matter how complex, "live" inside the basic FS9 environment. So no matter how much we praise on particular flight model, it's still based on the $70 (initial price), Microsoft-devloped flight dynamics, so there's always a limit on *how* complex a flight model can get. Graphics hardware and CPUs place limits on how detailed interiors and models can be as well.For scenery, it's a bit different. Licensing photographic images for use in a scenery can be very expensive which justifies the price of some scenery addons like Swiss Pro. Many other sceneries use some sort of licensed copyrighted data for much of their features, ie. coastlines, landclass, road and stream data and so on. Generally if the price of the source data was very expensive, tripple-digit prices for sceneries is acceptable.Not sure about Misty Fjords in particular - for