We see these discussions reqarding pricing all the time. Let me tell you a story (or two)...I went into the super market yesterday armed with a list from the wife. On the list was tomatos, with the additional note that if they cost more than $2.00 a pound, "DON'T BUY THEM!" I didn't think about the instruction on the way to the store, because I really didn't think about the price of tomatos and its importance in our shopping list. Well, I got to the store and found tomatos at $3.99 a pound. Almost twice what my wife told me not to even consider. I was amazed. I mean, I don't think of tomatos as a big deal, but $3.99 a pound. Even I was shocked. Did I run to the grocer and start yelling "hey, you are ripping us off" or "those prices are outragious"? No, certainly not. I did what I am empowered as the consumer to do... I did not purchase them.Second story; in the mid '70's I owned a camera store, studio and laboratory. When Olympus came out with the much vaunted OM series, and in particular, the OM-2, we were excited to be able to get our hands on a couple for re-sale in our store. Our store was the only camera store within 50 miles or so and the only others were located in Sacramento, some 45-50 miles away. I could only purchase those in 1 and 2's. My competitors in Sacramento purchased in the hundreds. I had a customer come in dying to have an OM-2. He had done some shopping around and knew that he could purchase the OM-2 in Sacramento at a price far less than I paid for the two we had in inventory. He refused to purchase the OM-2 from me, because I would not meet the price of the competitor 50 miles away. He very angrily left the store and went to Sacramento to purchase his camera. When he had problems with the camera, he had to drive to Sacramento to get it fixed.The message? We all have choices as consumers. All purchase considerations, whether it be tomatos, cameras or add-on's to flight simulator have pro's and con's that we as consumers are responsible for evaluating. That evaluation process determines our purchase decision; not the singular hype of the marketeer, the price, or even the reputation of the vendor. It is the total package that needs to be evaluated. Is it money well spent FOR YOU? Only you are the one that can determine that. If prices are too high, or more to the point, you don't feel you are getting value for your money in a product, then ulitmately, the market (YOU) will determine the fate of the product. All the discussion in this thread about WHY prices are going up is irrelevent. The only relevancy is whether whatever price demanded is of interest to you. If not, then you have just exercised your right of a consumer to vote with your wallet (or not).

HI Tom and others,I just got up (rather late) and went to the local supermarket to buy some breakfast, coffee, a newspaper and a couple of magazines. Must admit I bought a couple of packs of ciggies (don't lecture me!!!) and a bottle of wine to take later to a friend's place for supper.Total cost:

At least your customer went to Sacramento and didn't tie up your time and money by demanding you honour his warranty...That's what happens a lot these days. Customers go to small local stores to get hands on advise about things (cameras, TVs, books, anything), then buy online.When they need service they go to that local store who under the terms of the warranty certificate have to give that service and pay for the cost...The stores go out of business, unable to compete, and the ones complaining loudly are the ones who never purchased anything there in the first place, only considering them free showrooms and service centers.

In all fairness to the payware developers, the quality and realism have increased a 1000 %.The Flight One ATR, for example is just great work. No freeware developer I know would put 15,000 hours into developing add-on aircraft. Active Sky 2004.5 is amazing in terms of adding weather realism.Are the prices creeping up? Yes. But it is no different than other markets.Although I would like to see the payware developers come out with bundles with good discounts. Kind of like the model that FS Genesis uses. Join a club for X amount of money, and get huge discounts off all current products. The payware developers have not figured out (except for Justin Tyme at FS Genesis) this very lucritive model. I have approached developers like Reality-XP inquiring why they don't offer a WX-500 / GNS 530 bundle, maybe offering a $10 discount, but they basically snubbed the idea. I think EVERYONE needs to email as many payware developers as possible and state that you would support a bundle type of purchasing model. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY THINGS WILL CHANGE! To me this is a NO BRAINER model for generating revenue! Cash In Bank is all that counts!Hopefully some day.Thanks!Barry

>You should ask that question to the freeware designers of our>hobby. They spend that time and get only recognition and the>enjoyment of being able to give to our community.Could you clean my house for free?Shops also won't give me food for free.Every work should be paid in some way. And many freeware developers goes to payware world finally.Or you like go to work every day and not earn salary at all?

Like many of you, I have watched the prices of payware move up and up. My usual ceiling costs for payware is about $25 USD - I will go for more if it's a plane I have a particular interest in, like the Aeroworx B200. On the other hand, there are some nice aircraft for less - the Eaglesoft Citation II is a good buy at $19.95. There are also some very good freeware aircraft out there - Eric Cantu's latest Boeing 727 is a good example. I personally don't care for elaborate aircraft that have complex systems that require the use of extensive checklists - this runs up the development costs, is usually hard on frame rates, and I enjoy flying a variety of aircraft, so I can't remember all the details of the complex planes. I know many of you do enjoy the "realism" of running long checklists, but I would much rather have a simple plane with a good flight model (and a reasonable cost).In the end, as others have said, we vote with our wallets. For my part, I assume all the payware I buy may be obsolete when the next version of flight simulator comes out, so I'd better start saving my money for new hardware!Dale

We seem to have this "payware costs too much" discussion every month or two...I see it as a moot discussion, as the market will quite effectively communicate to the add-on makers the value of their products. We all vote with our wallets...and that's where the "votes" get counted.It isn't always rational in the short term...there have been some hideous failures that actually sold quite well...but over the longer term the people responsible for those products are probably seeing their sales go right into the trash heap with their products.The increasing prices have played a small part in my own increasing discrimination on what I buy. But more than that...and this is a good news story...the mushrooming variety of decent products has forced me to make choices rather than buy every new thing on the market...I simply don't have time to enjoy them all.So...this year, I acquired lots of great new add-ons...like PMDG's B737-800/900, Aeroworx' B200 King Air, MAAM's B-25J and RD-4/DC-3, the Altitude/Koch Media Concorde, a host of new regional terrain mesh from FSGenesis, Flight1's ATR and USA Roads, and Jet City's DC-9 models.And...this year I passed by an even larger number of products...like Captain Sim's 707 (bad prior experience with their 727 and F-104), all of FSD's products (many negative reports regarding their aggressive copy protection scheme), all of Lago's products (poor customer service evident in their forums), the SSW A310 (a well-known reputation for egregiously poor customer service), the Eaglesoft Citation X (too pricey for a plane without a functional FMC), any Ariane product (bad prior experience and the company they keep i.e. Bobo), Simflyers sceneries (major performance problems still and too pricey) and the list goes on.Finally, since once again the contributions of the freeware authors (who are still alive and well) seem to have been slighted once again, I have to note for the record the pure enjoyment I've gotten this year from many brilliant freeware contributions like AC Design's Howard 500 and Aerocommander, Stellan Hilmersby's DC-9 panel, Eric Cantu's B-727 models, various Project Opensky models, iFDG's Airbus 319, 320, and 321 models, Jose Oliveira's A320 flight dynamics, Lee Hetherington's TCAS gaugeware, Ken Salter's FSAutoStart, Chris Willis' cloud textures and the FSW group's FS SkyWorld, Marca Ravanello and Gianfranco Corrias' CIVA INS gauges, Isreal Roth and Seev Kahn's RWY12 Object Placer, and a multitude of aircraft repaints by contributors too numerous to mention...etc etc etc And let not the presence of Avsim and other freee-access sites go unnoticed or unappreciated, either.Truly, the list of freeware contributions is staggering. Freeware, and the spirit of freeware, is certainly not dead.In all, the hobby looks in pretty good shape as we end up another year. There's something for everyone, like everywhere else in the real world. If you're rich and enjoy simming enough you can go buy a ready-made PFC jet cockpit with dual controls and panoramic projected visual displays for a cool $150,000 or so. Or you can go buy a nice 40' boat and a Mercedes. And if you're on a shoestring budget, you can run FS2004 with a virtual cornucopia of great freeware planes, panels, and sceneries for the price of an internet connection. And there are many, many options in between. Nothing wrong with that.RegardsBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Washington, DC

So I guess you guys have accepted that freeware is dead. Well Tom if your listening maybe you should start charging a membership fee as well to join AVSIM (please don't!)Yes, I have noticed freeware members joining the payware ranks. I have also noticed more freeware designers cropping up as well. When Project Freeware was the elite of freeware developers there was not a Project Opensky, SGA, HJG, Vistaliners, IFDG and many other great freeware authors..What I am trying to say is that the payware groups probably have so much overhead that they have to charge those prices to make a modest profit. You have a model creator, a FDE guy, a panel guy, a sound guy then the painters. They all have to be compensated. Then you have to pay the publisher their cut. If they could cut out some of the cost, the final cost would probably be less.I look at some of the products that are being charged for and wouldn't even give them the time of downloading them if they were free. I look at some freeware and wonder why I'm not paying for them. Thank you freeware contributors for letting me enjoy MSFS.

Producing freeware these days is VERY hard, for a number of reasons, one of the main reasons is the realism and features users DEMAND.My first (and probably only) freeware plane package took me bloody ages to do, over 6 months, and it in no way approaches the quality we now come to expect from our addons.The fact is if we want feature packed, and realistic addons we are going to have to pay for them.Most people have no idea of the amount of work and time that is involved in producing freeware or payware, it is next to impossible to produce a package alone these days, I had over 5 people on my skyvan team, but people still expect people to produce these things for free.We need to be realistic, and accept that these prices are now the "going rate" for what todays simmer demands.Basically, be more picky with what you buy, and if you cant afford it then vote with your feet and resist from buying it.Dan.

>Could you clean my house for free?>Shops also won't give me food for free.>Every work should be paid in some way. >And many freeware developers goes to payware world finally.>Or you like go to work every day and not earn salary at all?Well, I do like to go to work every day and not earn a salary at all. Designing add-ons for FS is a hobby, and I willingly do it for free without asking for anything in return. I've been asked by a few groups if I would consider going payware, but for me the satisfaction comes from the creation, not the chance of receiving some sort of compensation. I will admit though, that when someone sends me an email thanking me for my work, it really encourages me.I don't have a problem with the guys who go payware. Unfortunately, it seems that we have lost many of the best freeware designers, but maybe this is just a natural progression. Most of the payware authors I know of are still active in the community, and are even willing to help the rest of us out. So, in that sense I don't feel that they have "sold out" as has been suggested in previous threads - I think they are just taking their hobby in a new direction.- Martin

Plain and simple the authors need to really re-think their market strategy.Misty fjords at about $48.00-50.00 will mainly appeal to the bush pilot crowd who want better scenery. Priced at $25.00 or a bit less would have appealed to the same bush pilots and many thousands more who don't fly the area as much but would like to have that scenery. At the price point they've set I can easily pass. Doing the math its price is about 60% more than a Mega Scenery area which covers about 31,000 nm miles,they also have the cost of the satellite photos to factor in for each area but can sell it for $29.95.With freeware about dead and payware in high gear there will be a big shake-out,the simming community will decide who stays and goes. It won't come down to just quality,it will be a balance of quality and price. I don't think the high quality always has to equate to high prices,look at what Carenado has done for years at $17.00-20.00.David

Thanks for all the responses. I just wanted to add that I was not picking on Misty Fjords or the ERJ in particular, they were just an example. I used them as the example because just before I posted I had just been to both their websites ready to purchase with credit card in hand until I saw the price. Now, I'm not a cheap skate by any means. Between the hardware and software for Flightsim I probably have easily $3000 tied up in this hobby already. Why did I balk at those prices? Because I guess I had to draw the line somewhere. If an ERJ was something I knew I was going to fly a lot I probably would have bought it. If I did a majority of my flying in Southern Alaska then I probably would have purchased Misty Fjords. At these prices as some of you have said I'm going to be a LOT more selective about my purchases now. That tells me that payware developers are going to lose volume because of the price and that should concern them.Will

>HI Tom and others,>>I just got up (rather late) and went to the local supermarket>to buy some breakfast, coffee, a newspaper and a couple of>magazines. Must admit I bought a couple of packs of ciggies>(don't lecture me!!!) and a bottle of wine to take later to a>friend's place for supper.>>Total cost:

Hi all,from freeware "hero" to payware "pariah" in one day - what a career move ;-)There are some interesting (and very civil, thank god) discussions happening over at the Misty Fjords support forum as well. I don't have much to say to the payware debate other than that I own very little payware myself and yet are a perfectly happy simmer and the stuff I do own - cheap and expensive - I picked very carefully and after longish "research" so as to avoid disappointment. Every other product I simply ignore.In my opinion, Tom has put it perfectly (hope he doesn't mind if I quote him again): "The message? We all have choices as consumers. All purchase considerations, whether it be tomatos, cameras or add-on's to flight simulator have pro's and con's that we as consumers are responsible for evaluating. That evaluation process determines our purchase decision; not the singular hype of the marketeer, the price, or even the reputation of the vendor. It is the total package that needs to be evaluated. Is it money well spent FOR YOU? Only you are the one that can determine that."My only hope is that those who purchase Misty Fjords don't feel "cheated" and thus don't enjoy what it has to offer.Cheers, HolgerP.S.: One strong message at the end: that "death of freeware" speak is annoying, insulting, and, above all, complete B.S. ;-)

>>Well, I do like to go to work every day and not earn a salary>at all. Designing add-ons for FS is a hobby, and I willingly>do it for free without asking for anything in return. I've>been asked by a few groups if I would consider going payware,>but for me the satisfaction comes from the creation, not the>chance of receiving some sort of compensation. I will admit>though, that when someone sends me an email thanking me for my>work, it really encourages me.>Then thanking is your price and users pays you that way :)Anyway you should support your family in some way.I respecting freeware developers but not always share their mind.No fights guys :-beerchug