OK Troy,That's it! We're at war! Expect a full fledged carpet bombing at your local FS airport soon! Hey, I would have looked at a Ford Powerstroke, however I did get to see the difference in connecting rods between the Ford and the Cummings engines . . .I was pretty impressed with the 'beef' of the Cummings. And, don't even talk to me about GMC or Chevy! Too many Chevy Crew Cab duallys bit the dust when I was haulin race cars around the country to even consider those. LOL.Best,Clayhttp://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...ers/Dopke01.jpgClayton T. Dopke (Clay)Major, USAF (retired)"Drac"

ClayLMAO;).I knew that would get your goat.Ford man myself but like you said whatever gets it for you right?RegardsTroy

This thread comes up in a huge multi-page argument at least once every 6 months or so (basically when all the new cutting edge payware gets released) and it cracks me up every single time.Basically it comes down to a certain vocal minority of people who want these products but either legitimately can't afford them or instead have some "philosophical" problem with prices above a certain amount and chose to complain about it.There's lots of things I want that I can't afford. I can afford pretty much any FS addon I decide that I want, but for instance you don't see me writing angry flame letters to Acura #### about not being able to buy their new 2005 RL, which I'd love to have. I don't have enough income to support buying something like that car, so therefore I accept the fact that I'm not going to have it at this point in my life and stop worrying about it. People complaining about FS addons need to do the same - you are not somehow owed a host of addons just by virtue of purchasing FS2004. If freeware authors choose to donate their time and creations to you, that's great for them and I applaud their generosity, but don't complain about someone who can't afford to or doesn't want donate that time who "goes payware." This is a free market economy, not some form of communism where everyone gets high quality addons at little or no cost.Sure, payware planes "back in the day" used to cost less, but guess what folks, they also used to be a lot less complex and realistic than they are now. You couldn't buy a PMDG 737NG for FS98 or a USA Roads for FS2000. We're actually at the point now where you'd have a very good idea of what to do in the cockpit of a real airliner from flying one of these addons - that was unthinkable even 5 or 6 years ago, yet people expect the price for such amazing quality to be the same as the old stuff. That's ludicrous and if the market really thought that instead of a few vocal "advocates", we wouldn't have any addons of such quality because developers would have to be out of their collective mind to devote that much time and energy to something (a job at that point) without being paid for it.Bottom line - you don't like the price, don't buy it. That's the beauty of our economic system - no one forces you to do anything.

RyanI could`nt agree with you more as far as if you can`t afford it don`t buy it but is there a reason why you feel that people should not make comment on the price of addons.I wonder about the agenda of folks that just can`t stand to see threads that debate the upward trend of addons.What do you care weather this type of thread comes up from time to time as you say that you can afford every addon that comes along.I also think the way you have described this thread is mis represented and have not seen one angry flame and to this point has been one of the most considered theads that I have seen on this forum in some time.I have to wonder Ryan who is the one who is really complaining?Is it the posters to this point or is it you as you seem to have the most strongly worded feelings on the subject.In short it is the right of every payware developer to charge whatever they think they can get for their product but it is the right of every user to debate weather it right or not.Troy

Hey Clayton...that truck story kinda reminds me of the 'ol Kansas farmer that was telling me about his favorite 'ol Axe: "it's had three heads and four handles..." :-)CheersBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Washington, DC

Hi all,I've read through just about all of these, and have a few thoughts to contribute. Many have summarized the issue and given their take.I've always been predominantly a freeware supporter, but I have bought a few payware Add-Ons. The quality of those add-ons as well as the price had met my expectations at that particular time, except in one isolated case. A Pathetic Developer.It's been quite a while since I bought a payware product. The aircraft are way overpriced to meet MY expectations. People talk about well it's less than an evening out. Well no kidding, so was the program.You can also buy the ENTIRE Program for less than an evening out, does that mean MS should charge $150.00 just so you feel better compared to an evening out. I am so tired of people whining and comparing an add-on to an evening out.Maybe that 2 hours of flying that add-on should be spent with your spouse on an evening out instead of in front of the computer, ever think of that. Or go spend time with your kids for a couple of hours. That costs nothing. Should we charge our kids to spend time with them just to justify our paying for add-ons. It has become ridiculous, hasn't it?IMHO, Payware is contributing to the decline in our hobby. MS has a monopoly, and I've been around long enough to see certain trends develop, IMHO.1) Payware product goes beta. All the little payware beta tester minions FLOOD, and I mean FLOOD the forums with screenshots, accolades, promises of grandeur, whatever. When the product is released, the same minions Flood the forums everywhere with screenshots and extend opinions of how great the product is, and how it will change your simming forever. (slight sarcasm, you should know what I mean.) 2) Then the problems start appearing. It stinks, it doesn't work, where is my patch. Why a Patch. Because the consumers are the Beta Testers and not every system is set up the same. But the developer says too bad, it's your system, and our product meets the minimum specs, go format your drive, reinstall FS and delete the 125 add-ons you have and our product will work fine, we promise. Go Pound Sand you contemptuous pieces of pond scum. Just give the guy his money back, will ya? Sheesh.....3) You have to reinstall FS for whatever reason, new puter, new hard drive, new week, etc.... Good Luck trying to contact some of these payware developers to get keys licenses, previous patches. Why because all you did was buy a download opportunity. In some cases, you are out of luck. Never mind you shelled out X amount of dollars for a download opportunity that comes with NO Printed Manual, a licensing SCHEME more complex than hypothetically breaking into a major bank, and attitudes from the developers of too bad, it's your system that is at fault, and we only agreed to sell you that product one time by download. But you can purchase their newest greatest upgrade to that product for another $20.00. 4) Scenery. This is another turnoff. I remember when all kinds of Freeware scenery developers were generating mesh, terrain, etc for free. And every time they released something, 5 or ten people would show up slamming the author until they decided not to release things anymore but produce for their own enjoyment, and no one else's. And then Miraculously, a payware scenery company shows up with all kinds of Fragmented areas for Outrageous prices using FREE software and data to develop.5) I wish I had another sim to compete with them to grow our hobby even more, but we do not since the unfortunate demise of Fly! II. Hopefully MSFS200X will include scenery to put these folks out of business. The data is available and is not that complicated, IMHO for MS to integrate it. They can simply do what they have done in the past. Give us the 4 CD's, and have sliders to turn down the scenery if a system is not the latest and greatest. Paying for small regions is simply a joke, IMHO, and I will not buy any of it in that fashion, especially at high prices that cost more than the program itself. They can also make other scenery areas available for users to download directly from MS. I hope they do this in the next itteration.6) We are responsible for the downturn in Freeware products. If we collectively didn't slam Freeware authors all the time, we would have more freeware to enjoy. (And some seem to slam it any chance they get. You know who you are. Makes me wonder what is in it for them. Do you wonder about that too??)7) Reputable developers. Yes there are some. Some that set up their own sites and forums, and don't lock others out that ask questions that are relevant even if they don't like the question. Some developers continue to release FREEWARE in the spirit of the community. Some just suck funds out of every little thing they can, consumer beware.8) Rights to criticize. a) Some of these almighty payware developers will whine and whine when someone questions their product rightfully so or not. Guess what. If you charge a consumer for a product, don't harass them just because that product stinks in their eyes. Appreciate where they come from, and recognize them for who they are, the provider of dollars to your capitalistic ways. You know for all those that hate Wal-Mart, they will take a return on anything almost no matter the condition or time it was bought. They have some of the best customer service, and their success shows that. Some of these developers need to get off their high horse and appreciate the consumer just a bit more. And yes, since you sell products you deserve to take criticism as the cost of doing business. You can't claim capitalism on one side and then not recognize the responsibility of being a good business owner on the other. And yes Freeware authors deserve more respect than payware in my opinion. By definition Freeware is done to support the hobby, payware is done to define the size of one's wallet. And I don't care what your costs are either. You chose payware, don't like it, don't make it. payware is a Pariah, IMHO on our hobby and has done more to damage it, than help it. Because of the schemes they concoct in terms of licensing, support, patches, harassment of criticism, etc., they have driven our hobby no where but down. Who lead the way in development, in almost ALL cases it was Freeare developers, not Payware. :( When you criticize a Freeware product, it should be in a solution based way, not slamming a person because he/she doesn't have all the Freeware tools to create every single eye candy you want. Just SHUT UP, and delete it. And you could stand to thank the Author and wish them luck on their next product they release for FREE. That is how Freeware has grown. Look at the success of the FLY! II series where Freeware still to this day continues to be made for a program out of market for almost THREE YEARS Now. Learn from them, as they are a class bunch.And instead of buying that next add-on this Christmas Season, donate to a good cause. Here is one Monetary, and One Not.I) Richard Harvey Scholarship Fundhttp://www.avsim.com/pages/scholarship.shtmlII) Help Fight Cancerhttp://www.grid.org/services/teams/team.ht...C1-F9EE49F2D4FE9) Where did a lot of the Freeware Authors go. They left IMHO, because of their mistreatment by people in forums like these. I got tired of seeing it and got turned off by the forums specifically because of it. I got tired of Payware developers and their so-called objective fans treating criticism of a paid for product like they have no right to ask a question. regardless of whether that same question has been asked before. And yes, some people honestly don't know how to search. Maybe next time, you can post the search link, and explain to them how it works instead of just demanding they do a search. I used to help out here quite a bit, but got tired of all the whining when someone asked a question maybe easy to you, but to that person, they just needed a little help. Just think, that one person could be the next FREEWARE Author that creates the best aircraft ever made for simming.10) Piracy. I've never downloaded, searched for, or would even think about downloading pirated software. It is wrong, and that is what I am teaching my kids. I have 3.36 GB (3,614,408,704 bytes) of files in my Aircraft Folder, comprised of 8179 Files in 740 Folders. Almost all of that is Freeware, and I am grateful. A lot of MSFS2002 Stuff, but a lot of MSFS2004 stuff as well. And I appreciate every one of those aircraft.11) I really get bugged when people take FREE data and sell the results of a few hours of work for profit. And yes, I see it all as profit. That is my opinion, and if you don't like it, tough. I'm not here to gain your approval, but you may be here to gain consumers. Voice programs is one example. Did you know there is a great FREE Voice program made by Microsoft that all you have to do is download. And then you go download Shoot, a Freeware game Voice recognition program designed to work with many systems. THE SPEECH ENGINE IS 100% FREE, yet some are selling it as sliced bread. Please.......12) I still Fly quite often, sim and real life, and I still download occasional files for my own use. I've always supported the FREEWARE Authors, and you will have a hard time finding a post of mine that criticizes a Freeware product. I also support payware developers that have met my expectations, and there are only a few. There are also some I would NEVER GIVE ONE PENNY of my money to, because they have no integrity, and are a cesspool in our hobby. And I won't tell you who they are either. If you are interested in whom I will never buy from, shoot me a private message.My updated list of Freeware Files I use on My Computer.I) Browser = Firefoxhttp://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/II) Mail Program = Thunderbirdhttp://www.mozilla.org/products/thunderbird/III) Anti - virus = Avasthttp://www.avast.com/eng/free_software.htmlIV) Spyware removal = Spybot Search & destroyhttp://www.safer-networking.org/en/index.htmlV) OFFICE SUITE for Private or Commercial Use = Open Office. Create PDF's, save as MS Word, Power Point, excel, move back and forth, Draw, etc....http://www.openoffice.org/VI) Voice recognition System = Microsoft & Shoot.http://clans.gameclubcentral.com/shoot/Conclusion.If you think it costs too much, don't buy it. And instead spend time with your family, and appreciate them all especially during this season.When you see a Freeware product, thank the Author, and appreciate the support that person received when they were new to simming. It is highly possible that the same person asked for help and someone was nice enough to help them. Help the new person out, and welcome them to the community.When you see someone criticize a payware product, appreciate the fact that the person paid for the product and can say whatever they please about it. Simply ignore them if you don't experience the same problem. Guess what, you don't have the same system.Next time you see a payware developer or a minion squawking about developer costs, whining consumers, etc... Just chuckle as they are getting paid to whine about those costs, problems, etc.Mainly thank the Freeware Authors when you use their wares, and if you have something negative to say about freeware, keep it to yourself, or offer the Freeware Author some help in rectifying their concern. maybe we'll all be better for that.I wish you all a Merry Christmas, and a Happy Freeware New Year.Best Regards,JoePS - When you criticize me, take note I will be aware of your Payware Signature Ad in your post, so I may not bother to respond because of a perceived conflict of interest by me against you.

Hi Joe,Great post, you bring up many valid points. You could have easily named your payware nemeses, but you took the high road and I respect that.Regards,Tom

Dear Joe,I beta for lots of people. Some of the best payware, and some of the best freeware . . . and some of the not so best freeware. Regardless, by trying to improve the quality of aircraft which is offered to FS adicts like myself, it's my way to give back to the community.I have to admit, there are some payware offerings which I think are just dandy and am super glad I have . . . and then there are those turkeys which we all have bought which make us look into the mirror and shake our heads and just wonder what we were thinking.Kudos for a great post ... a little shot of reality never hurt anyone.and this hobby could stand a great deal of reality at times and I don't mean on the computer screen.I couldn't have stated this point better if I had made a serious effort! Best to you and yours, but espicially this Holiday season.Clay

Awww, Bob! Hey, I'll bet that ole ax didn't cost 48 grand, LOL. Seriously, I really wanted that new truck . . .but not for the difference. What I spent on the old one was a drop in the bucket to the cost of the new one and I'm happy as a lark with it now. Besides, one trip through the fields in the wet spring and the new truck would look as old as the old one Clayhttp://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...ers/Dopke01.jpgClayton T. Dopke (Clay)Major, USAF (retired)"Drac"

I have spent my share of money on payware and have enjoyed some of the packages very much and will probably continue to do so. As far as complaning about price, how can one do that, we have a free market system where people can charge what ever they feel, the market dictates weather it is too high or not. There obviously is a huge market fir FS add-ons, if they sell at the higher prices, it only because we are buying them at those prices. As I look over the vast number of planes in my hanger and the number of destinations I am able to fly, I realize I currently own enough to keep me busy for the rest of my life with the limited time I have to fly. Many I have not even had time to really learn all the systems yet. How many biz jets do I need? How many heavies and how many GA planes? Personaly I think enough, is enough and I plan on scaling way back on my purchases and enjoy what I have now for all the different types of flying I enjoy. I may buy some things in the future, but I think I have pretty much reached my capacity for add-ons and those purchases in the future will be far and few between. That is just my thoughts and I am sure yours may be different.

I can't buy any payware now unless it's priced in USD. If it's priced in Euros, forget about it - breaking the bankSimmarket was one of my favorite places to get my payware stuff but I can't afford to shop there anymore

Joe,I do not post here very often but you have hit the nail on the head. The "hobby" to many does not appear to be flight simluation but buying payware! I wish I had that money to waste. I have not bought any payware for 12 months now - the price is too high for the value it has for me. Simple.Some points I disagree with you on though: Freeware is not dead by any stretch - look at the avsim file library.There is a case for payware but I too hate the products you refer to: SRTM meshes, tweaked textures...but they are there because somebody wants them, and many will buy a product rather than a similar for free because spending money makes them feel good.My contribution to this subject is - we desparately need a payware-free sub forum.Let's have posts about the flight simulation HOBBY again - how to improve approaches, using the GPS...not just bragging about the latest and greatest upcoming product. No more marketing BS. Ban signatures which are nothing but advertisments. We have an interesting scene developing around rwy12. object placer. Firefox/AdBlock help to mute the payware element of the hobby. If enough want a payware-free zone, perhaps the non-profit driven avsim will oblige?

"The "hobby" to many does not appear to be flight simluation but buying payware! I wish I had that money to waste. I have not bought any payware for 12 months now - the price is too high for the value it has for me. Simple."No, this hobby is about realism, and untill you have spent a thousand hours developing an addon FOR FREE, you cannot even attempt to understand how much work goes into producing these addons that people EXPECT for free just beacuse its a hobby, if you dont like payware, fine, dont buy it, BUT IT IS NOT A WASTE, and anyone who thinks that payware is a copout NEEDS to produce an addon to TODAYS STANDARDS and see just how much work it is, I love this romantic notion that just because its a hobby, it should all be done for free, what a crock of horse manure.""Some points I disagree with you on though: Freeware is not dead by any stretch - look at the avsim file library."No, its not DEAD, but the amount of freeware that is up to the standard we expect has slowed down dramatically, simply because it takes time, and effort to produce what simmers demand these days"There is a case for payware but I too hate the products you refer to: SRTM meshes, tweaked textures...but they are there because somebody wants them, and many will buy a product rather than a similar for free because spending money makes them feel good."And you hate these because?."My contribution to this subject is - we desparately need a payware-free sub forum.Let's have posts about the flight simulation HOBBY again - how to improve approaches, using the GPS...not just bragging about the latest and greatest upcoming product. No more marketing BS. Ban signatures which are nothing but advertisments. We have an interesting scene developing around rwy12. object placer. Firefox/AdBlock help to mute the payware element of the hobby. If enough want a payware-free zone, perhaps the non-profit driven avsim will oblige?"Hmmm..... I sort of agree with some of what you have said, but there is a certain element of this hobby that are addon junkies, you know the type who buy (or download freeware) the latest and greatest addon and pimp the hell out of it on here and the screenshot forum, just let them get on with it, and ignore it.Bottomline is, payware is here to stay, and as realism and the timescale to produce these feature packed addons, it will decrease, and decrease.Best thing to do is to be very selective with what you buy, or buy none at all if you are happy that way.Dan.

Up until recently it was the other way around and at that time 90% was priced in dollars...Welcome on the receiving end of high prices :)

I have been around these forums for some time and there has been a major change in the balance between freeware and commercial ware.Mainly becuase of the complexity and because of that complexity the expectations of the purchasers/downloaders.To put a blunt note on it, when the forums were rife with freeware many of the freeware gurus lapped up the adulation and gratitude bestowed on them and almost took that ego trip as their payment.Many have now moved into commercial enterprises but still seem to attract a simular adulation and gratitude and even demand it which rests uncomfortably with me when they are recieving hard earned cash.The forums have taken on a commercial look and in that sense some of the character of the hobby and kinmanship has gone which is a shame.Maybe Avsim should look into ways of stopping threads from being used as a commercial marketing opportunities. It may also be an idea to create a forum where freeware projects can be easely identified and followed while also being a forum where people with the talents can get together to create a complete freeware package. In such a forum they could ask for assistance in specialised areas where their own talent may not be as good as is needed to create top rate freeware addons.Just a thought