Jean Luc,You make some very good points. True, you offered one bundle. But I think the WX-500 and GNS-530 make more of a attractive package / bundle. My previous email especially about the 10% commision was not all serious, I assure you.I really beleive that my idea would help both sides (payware developers and the flight sim community who now have the preception of payware being overpriced). It would certainly stimulate sales. I think if you do the math, offer limited time programs, etc the potential is there. Not to mention the Public Relations value, WOW!BTW, maybe not across all products, but Coke and Pepsi ALWAYS put their products on sale. Sometimes it comes in the form of a lost leader on behalf of the store to help stimulate sales on other products in the store. They do it also for promotional purposes so people will return to their store because of the preception of "good deals". This is a NO BRAINER and does work.The bundle model just doesn't fit for Coke / Pepsi. But for payware developers offering multiple products, I believe it does. Right now ATC Simulator 2 is having or had a special sale for Christmas with a discount. Which this time of year, is a really good time to offer incentives.If Reality-XP is happy and satisfied and doesn't want to see more sales volume, great. I am still going to hold on to the No Brainer concept until I am proven wrong. >>Now, I can tell you that I would love being able to have any "modern eCommerce driven" packages and bundles, but there are also strong technical limitations given the available eCommerce tools which prevent doing so... <

Hi Dan,I hate the low-effort/low cost/global-appeal payware because it's money for old rope - as Joe said (paraphrase) - pure profit using free tools and freely data for a few hours work. But I don't begrudge those who profit from it nor those who demand it, although the former must be laughing all the way to the bank. Perhaps hate was a too strong word.Romantic notions of free may be a "crock of manure" to you but think about that next time you see linux/open office/firefox/flight gear...I do not view my hobbies in a ruthless capitalist way where labour and capital are one and the same, but each to his own.and I do produce freeware :-)

Hi all,First I should point out that I'm biased, 'cos some of my software was used in creating Misty Fjords. That said, I don't think that comparing this against something like MegaScenery is really valid. They're completely different things - the MS stuff is basically processed photos, MF is an entire environment and that represents a *whole* lot more work. It's well-sized too, covering as much area as some small countries.OK, it's more expensive than people had hoped. I know that'll put some people off but at least consider that it *might* be worth the money. I'm sure reviews will appear pretty quickly, there are screenshots and movies available already and even some freeware additions! There's a good discussion of the price on the MF support forums and the trend is that most who have complained about the cost but then still bought it have said they can see *why* it's expensive.Take a look at all the freeware stuff Holger's done in the past, usually reckoned to be among the best freeware stuff available. Consider that he's been working on this for more than six months, and that he's had help from quite a lot of the other big names in scenery design. If you're into bush-flying at all, it can't hurt to read about it.Cheers,Jim Keir

My solution is to buy only one of those with best balance between quality and price, then spend the time learning and enjoying it for years to come. Learn from your previous purchasing mistake also helps you to aviod repeating it and hence reduce your money spent. For now I literally stop buying paywares and enjoy only a few that I have. Goodluck.

"It's been quite a while since I bought a payware product. The aircraft are way overpriced to meet MY expectations. People talk about well it's less than an evening out. Well no kidding, so was the program.You can also buy the ENTIRE Program for less than an evening out, does that mean MS should charge $150.00 just so you feel better compared to an evening out. I am so tired of people whining and comparing an add-on to an evening out."I get kind of tired of people missing or totally ignoring the point of the comparison. Its a simple value for dollars comparison. If I can spend 30 bucks on two hours of entertainment going to a movie with my wife, why would I have a problem spending $30 on an add-on for FS9 that I might get 100 or more hours of entertainment from. On the one hand you spend 15 bucks per hour of joy, and on the other maybe 20 cents per hour of fun. Seems like a good deal to me. Making the comparison does not mean that I buy an add-on instead of going out with the wife and kids (or giving to charity or whatever else you may have mentioned). Its just a comparison for argument sake to put into perspective the cost we're talking about. Do I think MS should charge more for the sim? No. Not unless they are going to start including planes and scenery of a much higher standard than they do now.

"strong technical limitations given the available eCommerce tools which prevent doing so" does not refer to bandwidth but to eCommerce tools (read solutions)...current eCommerce tools (the tools used to sell online) do have limitations in regard to offering the electronic means to offer bundles. I've no need to comment any further, but in any case, thank you for bringing valuable ideas (and sharing them) on this forum with all of us!

>hmmm... probably not exactly to the point, but i find>something disturbing in this thread... people, if you can even> t h i n k of comparing an evening with a friend, a dinner>out with a family, to an airplane model, get the model... you>will sure enjoy it longer than you will the friend>;-)>Well, the way I see it, the price of enjoying an evening with a friend or family is not the issue. I enjoy the company of my friends and family for very little cost at home, except for very rare occasions. And if you also consider that the $$$$ cost of a movie ticket or sports event, goes to support some very questionable people, like some "movie stars" and "sports prima-donas", I would much rather "waste" my money on supporting people like Holger, who gave us so much enjoyment for free.I will continue spending money on payware, that I really like, albeit I am much more choosy than I was in the past.

>>This thread comes up in a huge multi-page argument at least once every 6 months or so (basically when all the new cutting edge payware gets released) and it cracks me up every single time.<

>Well, I do like to go to work every day and not earn a salary>at all. Designing add-ons for FS is a hobby, and I willingly>do it for free without asking for anything in return. I've>been asked by a few groups if I would consider going payware,>but for me the satisfaction comes from the creation, not the>chance of receiving some sort of compensation. I will admit>though, that when someone sends me an email thanking me for my>work, it really encourages me.>>- Martin>I have given up on getting comments about any of my add-ons. Which by the way are not MSFS related. I now look for the download count. If I get 100 downloads I call it a success. I do it as a hobby and for the challenge and have thrown out far more models than I have ever shared. I state in my read-me that if someone feels the need to pay for one of my add-ons then I would like them to donate to a charity instead. I don

>You can also buy the ENTIRE Program for less than an evening>out..."I think the other problem with that comparision is people don't see MSFS as the bargain that it is. MSFS is priced as it is because MS can sell close to a million units.The add-on market is a very very small market, it represents only a small portion of the MSFS customers. The unit sales of add-ons are very very low compared to what MS sells.The small add-on market means small profit margins and thus the reason for the high price of payware add-ons compared to the price of the full sim. If add-ons were priced at $10 each as some people seem to think is fair, those add-ons likely wouldn't be produced at all. It simply would not be worth the trouble, at that price.Regards.Ernie.

RonI think the point is being missed here as it not really about whether people should spend their money in an open free market.That has and always will be the case. If you create something then the market will determine the sales and achievable price and I have no arguement with that.Part of the reason for MSFS success has always been that it is a creative tool to many who get more enjoyement from using its creative potential than from using it as a pure flight simulator.Historically those people have made their creations freely available.Some were very good and these forums were very much driven by a gratitude to these individual developers and a support to their work.Because the addons have become more and more complex and through that complexity peoples expectations have risen to such a level that they are no longer very interested in incomplete aircraft with mediocre flight dynamics.Even with commercial ware people are now becoming very intolerant of anything which is released and isnt earth shattering.The other sims which are no longer in production were closed "what you see is what you get" sims and MSFS was a massive creative tool with huge offshoots.Unless Microsoft appreciate the new complexity and incorporate creative tools within the sim which take away a lot of the hard work for the individual builder then My fear is the whole structure of MSFS will change.Freeware releases especially of complete aircraft will die a death as will all but the best developers.Peter

My belief is we see these threads pop up whenever a new product seems to cross that imaginable "bar" on cost, whatever that may be. (I recall a big tadoo on Ariane when they crossed the $100.00 mark for a single aircraft or when Switzerland Pro came out).We sort of have a comfort level of what range in price "should be" for aircraft, scenery, etc (what say... the average is $20-$30 nowadays?), but if somethng jolts past that we may be in fear that all payware will take that trend and thus push add-ons beyond the reach of the average simmer (again, whatever that may be).But I think it's payware that makes us appreciate freeware so much more and freeware that drives payware to reach higher standards. One last thing, I can't think of another hobby where one can aquire so much for free. Growing up I was in Model Railroading and you paid for EVERYTHING (or built it yourself)... nothing was or still is free for those type add-ons.

Peter, We agree 100% that freeware as we knew it back in "the day" when we couldn't wait to get the "latest freeware panel to work with the other freeware plane" has taken a tremendous hit with the advent of top quality commercial addons for the sim.The top freeware people like Milton Shupe and others still do what they love to do and we will always be grateful for the contributions they and those before them have made to the growth of Flight Simulation.The difficult part of all this is we in the Flight Simulation Community can ONLY offer our GRATITUDE and folks like Milton and others have to work harder and longer to exceed or match what an entire team of commercial developers are producing."Harder and longer" is unfortunately not what some freeware developers would like to hear and who can blame them? We all know the stories of quality freeware being "hammered mercilessly" for the slightest reason and that leads to the following question.If freeware development is in decline do the attitudes and support of the CONSUMERS of freeware have any responsibilty for the decline??We would wager that is indeed the case and the "freeware consumer" must bear MUCH of the burden for freeware's decline.In short, one could say that the attitudes of flight sim consumers is having as much impact on freeware development as commercial developers are.If we all admit that we are a "spoiled bunch of flight simmers" it might add an air of genialty to some of these discussions.:-) :-)

I have to scratch my head in sheer wonder whenever I read someone's argument that "addon's should be free because FS is a HOBBY."I've been an HO model railroader for nearly four decades, and have NEVER seen a "freeware addon" for this particular HOBBY... :)It seems to me that this particular form of myopia occurs precisely because - in the final analysis - all FS "addons" are simply collections of 1's and 0's collated and stored in a frangible medium, and are not some tangible "thing" that may be placed on display in a locked glass cabinet when not in actual use, yet still may be seen and appreciated, weighed in the hand, and examined in microscopic detail.The "perception of value received" remains with physical "addons" such as a new HO engine or freight car simply because of they perdure even when not in actual use in the "sim" (in this case, the physical HO layout).As for the comparison of Walmart's "liberal return policy," that's fatally flawed as well, since even Walmart will not issue a refund on any CD or DVD product that has been opened. They will offer a replacement of the product if it is defective, but that is all they will typically do. One should have no reason to wonder why this is so...The fact that there even are some commercial vendors who will issue a full refund to a dissatisfied customer is really quite remarkable, especially in view of the fact that said person has most likely retained a copy that they will continue to use - and possibly even enjoy after their refund.

I rarely hop into these sorts of discussions, but this time I'll make an exception. I've been around these forums (seldom posting) since this site was started, and playing (the word was used intentionally) with FS since version 4. Obviously, I've seen a lot of changes in the sim and in the simmers themselves. The sim has certainly changed for the better - I wish I could say the same for the simmers (at least as represented by those who post in the various FS forums).Many of our talented designers have left the hobby (or at least vanished from public view) or joined the commercial side of flightsimming. IMHO, a lot of that is due to the attitude and petulance of many of the writers that I see represented in the forae. I've recently seen a couple of blasts against the new DF B727 - a model that hasn't even been released yet. Others have complained about Eric Cantu's B727 lacking strobes - in spite of evidence that the aircraft he used for a model basis didn't have strobes. Still others have complained that the Richard Probst 727 panel is giving them grief - most of the complainers haven't bothered to read the documents that are freely available on the web if they troubled themselves to look for and at them.This is nothing unique to our hobby: plastic scale modeling and model railroading have the same problem. People have hysterics over a missplaced nut or bolt on a $20 model rather than exercising their modeling skills and moving on.Enjoy your hobby folks: it's a good one. If the commercial stuff is too expensive, don't buy it. Find and support the excellent freeware developers and groups that still exist - they're still out there. Try and resist the impulse to whine about minor problems with someone else's modeling. Just suck it up and fix it, accept it, or throw it away... but save us all the complaint and nasty commentary.OK, vent off... enjoy your next flight.DJ