>In defense, the payware supporters want to define using ONLY>hypotheticals and we are expected to take that as truth. I>just refuse to do so. And that is my opinion.Joe, just WHAT "evidence" would be acceptable to you? If you want hard "proof," the only reliable way to obtain that would be for you to travel to my location and physically inspect my bank statements, accounting records, and income tax filings.If you're willing to travel here at your own expense, I'm more than willing to open up my office records for your personal inspection.Even were you to actually DO this though, you'd only be here in the forum the very next day claiming that I never showed you the "real books."You are demanding the impossible, and that sir is a FATAL FLAW in your entire argument. It is also a FATAL FLAW that you cannot be ignorant of. No one could possibly be that blind.

>>In defense, the payware supporters want to define using>ONLY>>hypotheticals and we are expected to take that as truth. I>>just refuse to do so. And that is my opinion.>>Joe, just WHAT "evidence" would be acceptable to you? If you>want hard "proof," the only reliable way to obtain that would>be for you to travel to my location and physically inspect my>bank statements, accounting records, and income tax filings.>Bill, I wasn't the one making the claims of the payware developers, it was their supporters whom I asked to provide evidence.It is their responsibility to prove it since they made the claims. How they do that is not my responsibility, it is theirs.You want to send me your stuff, I'll take a look at it.>If you're willing to travel here at your own expense, I'm more>than willing to open up my office records for your personal>inspection.>Nope, I didn't make the claims, read above who claimed what first before I responded. Read the whole thing, please.>Even were you to actually DO this though, you'd only be here>in the forum the very next day claiming that I never showed>you the "real books.">Bill, now you are being silly, you can't predict the future, and you certainly can't say how I would report anything. Go back and read my very first post in this thread, and what I said positively about some developers.>You are demanding the impossible, and that sir is a FATAL>FLAW in your entire argument. It is also a FATAL>FLAW that you cannot be ignorant of. No one could>possibly be that blind.It is not my Flaw, it is the flaw of those who made the original claims in support of the payware developers.I have no problem defending certain payware developers, and I have done so in the past, but when claims are made, again, it is not my responsibility to just trust what they say, and if they can't prove what they said, and they can't prove their claims, well, maybe next time, they won't use the same old argument.I never said that ALL payware developers did this or that, I qualified my remarks, as I do here.Again, read all of my posts, read the posts that garnered my replies, and then hey, if you want to open up your books, your choice. But I don't see you running around making outrageous payware developer claims either.If you took it to mean your company, that is your concern, not mine. I specifically have not named any companies, either positive or negative as some here do. I also did not resort to personal attacks in kind.I also will be sending you a private message in resposne to your attack on me.Regards,Joe

>I also will be sending you a private message in resposne to>your attack on me.Joe, that was not an "attack" at all. I'm simply trying to point out the blindingly obvious "flaw" in any demand for "proof."It is simply impossible to provide any. One cannot logically prove a negative.

Then maybe that group should not make claims at all huh?And isn't that the point.

So in essence what you are saying is one side of the debate is allowed to say anything and the other side nothing at all?? You are making literally no sense.Look, it's not up to me or anyone else to "prove" anything to you. I happen to believe what many of the developers claim to be the case - that total sales numbers are relatively small and profits generally fairly low in the flightsim add-on market. Therefore, I present those beliefs when these issues come up. If you don't believe that to be the case then how bout you prove that they are lying becuase I'm tired of all these unsubstantiated claims being made by the anti-payware brigade that payware developers are cruising around in Ferrari's and personal jets off the enormous profits they make selling hundreds of thousands of freeware add-ons. Or, just excercise the option that you and everyone in a free market share - don't buy.

Tom,It occurs to me that, especially in the last year or so, many developers are not too happy revealing their financial status, not because they are doing "well" and want to hide it, but because they are more likely too embarrassed to reveal how poorly they are doing and do not wish to appear lacking in Kudos.There appears to be little correlation between quality of addons and financial success. It's all about marketing and we're not terribly good at that, and we know it.So we rely on word of mouth and recommendations. Where Joe is going wrong is in assuming payware means the path to riches. If he only knew how hit and miss this hobby / industry is!Rob Young

Word of mouth really does mean something in your case, Rob. I've been impressed with your work since the days of your terrific Fly!2k v88 flight models. Seeing your name attached to an add-on aircraft always gets my attention.Dan

>Joe sounds like the small kid who can no longer afford to buy>his candy now that the store has had to raise prices because>of inflation and starts whining "it's not fair. Mummy won't>give me more pocket money so you cannot make my candy more>expensive"...>Unfortunatly that's exactly the impression many may get after reading the tirade's:-)

I can completely understand the inflated prices for entertainment these days. We also pay $9.50 per head for the cinema.That's why my wife and I rarely go see movies at theaters anymore. It's cheaper to buy the DVD a few months later than to go see one viewing at the theater! (And that's without concessions!) Only for highly anticipated movies will we shell out the dough to see it at the theater.Having said that, I think that movies and a lot of payware are still priced too high. Oh, professional sporting events are also getting out of hand.

Read the thread again.It is their claims that are unsubstantiated here. Mine were resposnes to their claims. Do you even get that?So yes, when they make a claim, anyone reserves the opinion to ask them for a bit more than the same old arguments, Orrr......Maybe they should not make those claims anymore.And I never said they were lying.I am happy you are so believing in everything they say. Good luck with that.Regards,Joe

OK - a little off topic I know, but I've watched this thread a while now....Whats the longest thread to date ?? This could be getting up there I reckon ?Just curious - great thread have to say BTWRegardsEd:-)

>That is roughly the price of 2 high quality payware aircraft>add-ons which will give me a TON more enjoyment then 1 good>dinner and 1 semi-decent movie.But, will the payware get you laid?

You re-read the thread. You're the one making all sorts of wild accusations about huge profits and sales, which you have absolutely zero proof of. As I said, it's not my job to prove anything to you. I have as much right to express my opinions/beliefs as you do yours. In the end though, I don't really care what you believe to be true. All that matters to me is that I feel I've gotten fair treatment from the payware devs I've dealt with. Don't let it worry you if you think I'm being taken to the cleaners, I'm a big boy and I can take care of myself.

This topic's generated a lot of nonsense.Suppliers can set any price they choose for a product and don't have to justify it. We can decide whether the product is worth that price or not, also without justification. Most of us do this every day in the real world. There can be no "correct" price, other than what the market determines.mgh

>You re-read the thread. You're the one making all sorts of>wild accusations about huge profits and sales, which you have>absolutely zero proof of. As I said, it's not my job to prove>anything to you. I have as much right to express my>opinions/beliefs as you do yours. In the end though, I don't>really care what you believe to be true. All that matters to>me is that I feel I've gotten fair treatment from the payware>devs I've dealt with. Don't let it worry you if you think I'm>being taken to the cleaners, I'm a big boy and I can take care>of myself. No....Start here, and then take my replies in that context. It was Ernie who started making the claims that I responded to.Here is a link to help you along your way.http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...24&page=#226474Clearly anyone can see it was Ernie who began the claims, and then I responded in kind by asking him to show me where he gets those claims from.Regards,Joe