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BeechPapa

MK KSNA Remove Autogen Exclude

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Since there are no payware versions, MK KSNA is my only decent option for John Wayne. It's wonderful scenery, almost payware quality, but the autogen exclude is gigantic and turns orange county into a baron wasteland. I have tried loading the AFX_KSNA file into ADEX, but the only autogen excludes I see are right over the airport. I cannot find a way to remove the autogen excludes that go on for miles around the airport. Anyone have success getting the surrounding autogen back for this beautiful freeware airport?

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I have gone through the same pains. No solution available.

Disappointing news. Just curious, but did you decide to keep using the scenery anyway?

 

I think the lack of autogen might be less problematic for departures because of the steep climb and noise abatement - I usually don't have much chance to look out the window till I'm near the coast. Approaches would be sadly desolate though. It's hard to go back to default KSNA now, but the lack of autogen is a major drawback.

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Does it have a large photoscenery that simply doesn't have autogen annotations? If so you could try disabling that and then you'd just see landclass textures (which would have autogen).

 

Also it could be a ground poly excluding autogen, is this a fairly old scenery, like before ModelConverterX and the ground poly wizard? The GP wizard has provisions to prevent autogen supression but FS2002 GPs done the old fashioned way (by tweaking the .asm files) had a horrible problem with knocking out autogen for sometimes miles around in FSX. If that's the case you could also disable the GP but the result may be worse than the autogen supression, lol. Might look OK with a good afcad though?

 

Jim

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Thanks for the suggestions, Jim. I have to admit I am a total green horn when it comes to scenery modification. My limited experience with ADEX came when I tried to modernize old Malta FS9 scenery for FSX with custom autogen. That didn't go too well, lol  - my sparse and sporadically placed autogen somehow caused massive stutters. So please bear with my lack of knowledge. 

 

MK KSNA does indeed have photoscenery coverage without autogen, but the photoscenery background does not present itself in the Scenery folder as a BGL of any sort. That's the part that is so frustrating. I have been able to turn off aerial backgrounds before for other airports, but I simply don't see where it's hidden this time. I have turned off all sorts of BGL files without any luck. Using ADEX, I can open up the AFX_KSNA file inside the Scenery folder for the airport, but when I go to the List->Excludes menu in ADEX I only see a few minor excludes for "Taxisigns Trigger Windsocks" - no autogen or ground polys. This airport seems to have been constructed using some baffling techniques. It is not old scenery though, it was made in 2011. http://mk-studios.com.pl/index.html

 

I live somewhat close to John Wayne and have taken off/landed from there, so for sentimental reasons I keep struggling to get this working. It's my second time installing it now (after giving up on it a year ago) and my second time going through these fits. I actually just sent a request through their website offering money to solve the problem. It's a little desperate, but I really do think the airport is payware quality, and it's certainly one of the few if not the best KSNA out there.

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Yes I kept it. It is a core airport for my sim operations - flying Air California routes with B-737-200 and BAe 146-200. I have Aerosoft´s US Cities L.A. and it is indeed a blasted area around the airport, but it is of payware quality and cannot be abandoned. As I said, disableling and removing different bgls and varying scenery order did not bring any results.

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The issue is that FSX tends to wipe out autogen if a photoreal background is laid out. The way to overcome this is complex and requires literally planting trees and placing houses by hand. In the case of this SNA scenery one would need to do the 'annotating technique' as mentioned or overwrite it with a new ADE file which would place trees and houses.

 

Shez

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The problem is that the photo gound texture has been created using FS8 models, files gndbase.bgl and gndbase_LM.bgl.

 

Unfortunately they have placed the model without using NoAutogenSuppression so it removes a huge swathe of autogen.

 

One solution is to place model trees and buildings, another is to create your own photo textures using Resample from the FSX SDK.

 

George

 

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FS2002 GPs are not "placed" George, the coords are specified when you export from the FS2002 gamepack or in the MCX GP wizard so NoAutogenSuppression doesn't work, otherwise you could just decompile the placement, add it, and recompile.

 

This airport doesn't have a resampled photoreal, it has a large GP textured with aerial imagery (which is suppressing a heck of a lot of autogen). Making a photoreal and adding autogen wouldn't help, the GP would suppress any autogen you added on the photoreal just the same as it does on the LC textures. If you disable the GP (13 files in total) you can stop the autogen suppression, but then you'll find a massive "coral" apron that's specified in the APX which basically covers the whole airport. I'd call it "unfixable" without the source files. You'd need to re-export the GP model and run it through the MCX GP wizard. Aside from that, the only thing you could do is place trees and buildings with ADE or Instant Scenery and to fill the massive suppressed area with placed objects would completely devastate performance (not to mention requiring a month's work).

 

It's pretty nice just the way it is though, the MSEv2 guys would never even know the difference :smile:

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I agree Jim.

 

If one were to create photo ground textures, the only things recoverable would be the buildings since the GPs are misplaced with respect to their real world position.

 

I think you were being conservative with your estimate of a month's work ;-)

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LOL, yeah, probably conservative indeed, and at my pace 5 yrs :smile:

That seems like an accurate estimate for me as well. People would be using quantum computers as I continued to hand place houses and offices around sim-world Santa Ana. lol. The performance,as you mention, would also take a major hit. 

 

I thought maybe this might be as simple as cropping a photoreal once I found it, but based on everyone's input (and much thanks to all of you for explaining the design methods used) I guess an afcad is the only choice.

 

You're right though Jim, the MSE guys would never know the difference and probably think I'm crazy. Sometime I wish I was just a photoreal kind of guy, FSX life would be simpler that way and probably a heck of a lot more accurate. Ah well. It's still a beautiful airport and as Nurmblitz said, "it is of payware quality and cannot be abandoned". 

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For me autogen is more important than photoreal + featureless flat ground. With the new packages like FTX Global and previously GEX etc. the ground from high up is pretty decent anyway.

 

Shez

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I agree with both of you on the barren photoreal, although I admit to making a few and then using the sim like google earth at times when I've been particularly interested in some part of the world, most recently Aspen/Leadville CO, and before that I had a thing going on with Bonneville Salt Flats (found the speedway. lol). The salt flats didn't look bad at all without autogen - Aspen, well...

 

Any thoughts about updating your FS9 KSNA for FSX/P3D Shez? I mean it's gotta be passing through your mind with this thread and all, right? :smile:

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I could update it but it is in a queue. I am finishing KLGB FSX (which is taking longer because it has suddenly sprouted a new terminal :rolleyes: ), and I have a side project going to finish the Fedex ramp at KMEM, along with KRIC. And of course the big KDTW for SSJ!

 

Maybe if the developer agrees we could decompile the BGLs and update it?

 

Shez

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I couldn't see any way to get the ground polys decompiled, I'm not sure what they were compiled with? Using some GPs I've made myself to test, I can drag either .asm/BGLC_9 or GP wizard ground polys into MCX and see the models, it would be possible I think to export one of those to .3ds and get it into gmax, but I wasn't able to get MCX to display anything when I tried the KSNA GP .bgls. I'm not sure how you'd decompile them, but I suppose it would be possible to just make a new GP using the textures (which are very nice)? Maybe the dev could be convinced to run the GP models through the GP wizard where the 'do not suppress autogen' tweak could be applied?

 

EDIT: Actually I tried it again and I did get gndbase.bgl to open in MCX, maybe I didn't allow enough time on the first try, I'm on my old Athlon XP PC until I get a graphics card in my new one so it took forever, lol.

 

Jim

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Made some progress on this last night. Can get the autogen to show up through the ground bgls but not with all the other files installed as well. So there is something else interfering. Hopefully I'll have some time later today or tomorrow to investigate further.

 

This is a nice piece of scenery.

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I am watching this with interest as I lived in Irvine from '98 to late 2010 and flew constantly in and out of John Wayne.  I would also like for someone with such skills to add reasonable renditions of the two blimp hangars in Tustin.  Someone had done that for FS9 but I only been able to address them with photo scenery, which is flat when on final.  That works fine for the surrounding District shopping area, but the blimp hangars are such a key visual cue for approaches that it seems unnatural that they are missing.

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I am following this discussion with interest, as I am one of those that agree that the mk ksna is a really good rendition of this airport, but the lack of autogen around it, is really a shame !

Hope one of you guys could resolve the autogen problem!

Shez great news from you indeed! ;)

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I have looked into this as well. I have converted the files causing the autogen issues and now the autogen is not an issue. The groundbase is still a problem as it is causing flickering.

 

Shez

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Just want to express my gratitude to everyone working on this autogen issue. The flight sim community is like no other, and it's this kind of dedication and good will that have kept FSX thriving. I haven't heard back from MK studios yet, but will let you guys know as soon as possible if I do. Merry Christmas!

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OK I have completed the V2 version of this. I have had to take the original textures and combine and split them so unfortunately lost a little in the translation to DXT textures but overall significantly reduced the number of large ground textures so FSX only has a limited number of textures/drawcalls to make. FPS should improve,

 

Also had to run the BGL files again to give them a good layering stack and try and reduce the impact on the autogen.

 

Unfortunately there is one file which I still cannot figure out which might further reduce the autogen impact.

 

The results are pretty good and the autogen is now all the way to the boundary except in a few areas where the autogen is about 1/2 mile away but one cannot see the impact when observing from the ground.

 

Now the problem is that I still do not have any contact from the developer so I am not sure if I can release this. Can anyone try and contact him?

 

However, for anyone interested in Beta testing this please send me an email. shez.ansari at gmail dot com.

 

Shez

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Just want to say I've been using Shez's fix and the autogen is back. John Wayne now fits in with other quality airports in the region. I really think people who have been drooling for a polished John Wayne will be quite pleased,with no compromises. It really livens up Southern California. I've been busy flying the area like never before. Enormous thanks to Shez and to each of you who worked on this. I believe work on the beta is still going on, but its available for testing.  

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One issue which I am trying to resolve is that a crash occurs in most parts of the airport if you have crash detection turned on. This is again related to that one file I mentioned in the message above.

 

Shez

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