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Noel

Explain this troubling performance issue

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FTXG is installed.  I start my flight w/ the default P3DV2 behavior of launching into a flight w/o giving access FIRST to the built-in planner, at KSBA in the EMT installed CS Super MD80 Pro.  On RWY 07 at dawn, locked at 60fps.  This is to be expected IF the MD80 performs well as it clearly does in FSX.  Now, I start me real intentioned flight from KDEN > KSAN in the MD80.  At Gate A something, at point-blank range from the side of the terminal at the gate looking at the building from whence the jetway emerges, frames are now at 24.  In the FSX world this would have been so easy to process I would likely still be looking at 60 fps locked.  OK, no problem I pan to the left and I'm up to 40 fps.  Now however, I do a top-down view:

post-101053-0-73321500-1387477624.jpg

 

Note the frame rate now.   And the sim is 'in focus'.  I have never seen anything like this in FSX, this kind of random-appearing mega-deterioration in frame rate in any top-down view anywhere even in FTX scenery.  Display settings in V2 have very little impact on this as well, and as this is the airport I'm guessing FTXG doesn't have much influence on this.

 

There are some oddities that seem very random and hard to predict in V2...

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Here's another example of some real potential trouble.  I am in the same plane now the MD80, NOT looking thru the VC but just front view, point blank range at a medium gate at KORD, and see 24 fps.  There's almost nothing but a building in front of my view.  Now, here's a screenshot of the topdown view, typically locked at 60 frames in FSX, down to a paltry 17 frames.  But that is not the real troubling piece:  look at GPU utilization--it's hardly there, and clearly the CPU isn't keeping up well either.  This is a default airport.  This is suggesting a big big part of the default airport complexity must be rebuilt to utilize whatever V2's rendering engine can do.  The problem of course is that the full complement of FSX default airports are what are packaged w/ V2, yet anything w/ any complexity appears to want to tank terribly in V2 by comparison to FSX--saying V2 is not FSX doesn't add anything because what is packaged with V2 IS FSX airports.  Now I'm in the CS Super MD80 which is clearly no more difficult IN FSX to process to than default planes, which makes it the most useable bigger plane for V2 so far.  Now, try sitting at this same gate in the PMDG NGX.   I can't imagine how this can be improved.  Again, I'm looking at the gate building WITHOUT even the VC in the MD80 and frames are a really weak 24.  This DOES NOT bode well at all for V2 evolving into a useful sim for larger tube liners. 

 


Here's another example of some real potential trouble.  I am in the same plane now the MD80, NOT looking thru the VC but just front view, point blank range at a medium gate at KORD, and see 24 fps.  There's almost nothing but a building in front of my view.  Now, here's a screenshot of the topdown view, typically locked at 60 frames in FSX, down to a paltry 18 frames.  But that is not the real troubling piece:  look at GPU utilization--it's hardly there, and clearly the CPU isn't keeping up well either.  This is a default airport.  This is suggesting a big big part of the default airport complexity must be rebuilt to utilize whatever V2's rendering engine can do.  The problem of course is that the full complement of FSX default airports are what are packaged w/ V2, yet anything w/ any complexity appears to want to tank terribly in V2 by comparison to FSX--saying V2 is not FSX doesn't add anything because what is packaged with V2 IS FSX airports.  Now I'm in the CS Super MD80 which is clearly no more difficult IN FSX to process to than default planes, which makes it the most useable bigger plane for V2 so far.  Now, try sitting at this same gate in the PMDG NGX.   I can't imagine how this can be improved.  Again, I'm looking at the gate building WITHOUT even the VC in the MD80 and frames are a really weak 24.  This DOES NOT bode well at all for V2 evolving into a useful sim for larger tube liners. 

 

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poor performance is the risk of running non supported addons in v2 at this point in time, I have tried the Aerosoft Airbus Extended and the fps was very good ( 30+ at its lowest ) while the Ifly 737ng using the P3Dv2 installer i was getting 20 to 25 fps. This was with a stock clocked cpu and not the overclock that's in my profile.

 

Edit

 

Oh yeah forgot the add, The Aerosoft Airbus Extended is built using the p3d 1.4 64bit sdk/tools and the Ifly is not, if that makes any difference.

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What happens when you try this with P3D at default?

 

 


Now I'm in the CS Super MD80 which is clearly no more difficult IN FSX to process to than default planes,

 

This isn't FSX. As gandy said, this might well be due to non-compatible add ons. I even regard FTX Global as not compatible because there still are some serious bugs: I don't have it installed anymore right now.

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Noel, I must be blindly stupid because I am missing some obvious point here.

 

I have done everything you have in both P3D and FSX and the results are quite similar. The obvious differences to me are that:-

 

1. At higher zoom levels, P3D(v2) is loading substantially more autogen than fsx, hence the drop in frame rates. Interestingly they increase again after a period of time.

2. Zooming out to a much higher level again, they are both similar.

3. At both gates the frame rates are similar, although P3D(v2) is loading more autogen.

 

Other obvious issues to me are:-

 

4. Flying stock aircraft in both sims, from both airports in my virtual cockpit - provides similar frames, but P3D has a better overall "atmosphere" with more scenery and runs smoothly.

5. My "mystery" 737 performs as well as, if not better than, in P3D(v2) as it does in FSX.

 

Sorry to labour the point, but what am I missing here?

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Sorry to labour the point, but what am I missing here?

 

 

I have autogen at NORMAL in P3D (I know they aren't equivalent), and I have autogen set at Extreme in FSX.  Here are two topdown views from FSX, same bird.  Clearly the farther out we zoom in V2 the airport detail remains, so that is conceded:

 

 

 

But this is true as well:  same bird, point blank range from the side of the terminal same gate, FSX frames at 57, P3DV2 at 24 and this IS NOT even in VC view--it's just external front view.  Throw the NGX in there and we will be seeing low to mid teens.  I hope not, but this is quite believable, albeit pure conjecture.  

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I've never used that view on purpose my entire time using Flight Sims.. Not sure what the problem is here and I'm not being snarky either.. 

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I cant quite understand it either, is it slewing performance were worried about?  Let's give P3D a couple SP's and a few native addon's before we rush to any judgment's

 

I'm more interested in seeing how good the addon's that are designed from the ground up with DX11 in mind, look and perform.

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He needs a top-down with a billion fps for some reason and he does not understand how p3dv2 renders the planet in that view mode which is a lot different from fsx and why the fps drop happens, there might be a way round the fps drop by using multichannel with some custom settings on that channel.

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He needs a top-down with a billion fps for some reason

 

No you are clearly missing the point.  The point is that if complex area default airports function this way, i.e. direct view of a blithering wall gets you 24 frames without even being in a VC, then how does that bode for complex birds like PMDG products?  The top-down view point was just demonstrating some fundamental differences in the rendering system that may have some very dark implications.  In terms of waiting to see how native apps functions, do you think it's practical to wait for all big terminals to be built in native V2 mode?  That will not happen in the near term, and in fact speaks to building an entirely new simulator if that is the case.   One of the huge draws for P3D is that the entire airport world is packaged w/ the initial install.  Remember, these screenshots were done without even being in a complex aircraft and moreover not even looking thru the VC.

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What you are ignoring is that a good number of us have already been testing these scenarios with great success. 

 

If anything, my flights into FSDTs KJFK were smoother in P3D2 than FSX. Not necessarily higher FPS (don't really know, stuck at 30 limit in both) but in no way worse.

 

You instead seem to want to cling to this scenario you've created as evidence of something others have already tested directly.

 

I don't get it.

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I cant quite understand it either, is it slewing performance were worried about?  Let's give P3D a couple SP's and a few native addon's before we rush to any judgment's

 

Sure, we have to wait and see.  Right now put me on record as speculating after what I observe with default planes in V2 that PMDG NGX & T7 will perform terribly at most if not all large metropolitan areas, and that is where those sorts of planes are flown in and out of.  We'll see, but it looks very iffy right now to me.   

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Ok, I'm going to ask the obvious question here, so that we can slowly move away from assumptions. Have you tried with the PMDG NGX Noel?

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What you are ignoring is that a good number of us have already been testing these scenarios with great success. 

 

If anything, my flights into FSDTs KJFK were smoother in P3D2 than FSX. Not necessarily higher FPS (don't really know, stuck at 30 limit in both) but in no way worse.

Brian, I'm not ignoring anything, I'm doing some testing maybe you aren't.  Try being open to new information maybe.  Are you comparing default planes in both V2 & FSX at KJFK?  I found performance in the exceedingly easy to run MD80 at FB's KPHX to be quite weak, and compared to PMDG stuff that bird is on a par w/ default plane performance.   Sure, take the MD80 out of a smaller terminal like KSBA and I'm locked at 60 as predicted.  A troubling finding to me is how the GPU is utilized at only 38% while frame rate is a paltry 18.  I'm seeing this in other scenarios as well, so while the engine does clearly exploit VRAM & GPU better and differently in the most taxing areas frame rate can suffer greatly while there is still ample headroom in the GPU.  Throw in a PMDG bird and quite frankly I'll be shocked if they are even useable in V2 in the types of terminals they typically fly in and out of, even when 'optimized' whatever that will mean.  I'm happy to eat these words later but right now I think it looks exceedingly poor for complex aircraft within V2.    We can revisit this if and when PMDG follows thru.  If they don't follow thru that may be tacit support that is is not possible to run these simulations well in V2.  As I say, I'm happy to eat these words and I never have said I'm certain it's bad, but these behaviors point to potential problems IMO.

Ok, I'm going to ask the obvious question here, so that we can slowly move away from assumptions. Have you tried with the PMDG NGX Noel?

Nope.   Tell me what we know about that.  I'm not here to prove I'm right I don't give a rip, I'm just reporting what I observe.

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