You have your opinion and I have mine Martin.

You have your opinion and I have mine Martin.

 

How so?

 

If you can enter the UEFI AFTER the auto-overclock utility has done it's thing you can change/tweak any setting you like.

 

Why would you be against that? I'm just curious, in case there's an issue with the approach I haven't considered.

Even Asus says that it is best to set vcore manually

 

I quote:

"Either way, dialing in an overclock using Manual Vcore to determine how much voltage the processor needs under full load is best -"

 

Here is a link:

http://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?33488-Maximus-VI-Series-UEFI-Guide-for-Overclocking&country=&status=

 

The quote is toward the end.  They do say after you find your vcore manually if you want to use adaptive mode you can, but personally I do not think adaptive mode at high overclocks is a good idea.

 

If you use adaptive mode and your CPU gets hit with AVX instructions sets adaptive mode will increase your vcore by 0.1 without you even knowing about it.  If your CPU gets fully loaded adaptive mode will also increase vcore.

 

If you want to use adaptive mode or use a utility that is fine.  I do not use either and will not.  Regarding a utility, I will enter settings manually so I know that everything is set to what I want.  I am not going to let a utility decide for me what setting is best, especially when going for a high OC.  Running a OC of 4.2 and letting a utility do the work maybe fine, but when I am running a OC of 4.7 I want to know what settings have been changed and I want to know that the settings I changed are not going to get changed without my knowledge.  The 4770K and Z87 motherboards jack up the voltage enough as it is.  My 1.33 vcore under OCCT stress test load is actually 1.36.  If I used adaptive mode it would get jacked up to 1.43.  This is why I think at higher overclocks adaptive mode is a bad idea. 

 

Raja of Asus also states that if you are going to use AVX stress tests (OCCT like I use) then do not use adaptive mode.  If you OC you really should stress test to make sure that your OC is stable and the stress tests that I use are AVX instruction sets.  I know that you do not believe stress tests are necessary Martin, but I do and this is another difference of opinion that we have.

See Raja's post #225 here.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?286345-ASUS-Z87-Motherboards-Overview-Guides-and-Official-Support&p=5198061&highlight=adaptive+mode#post5198061

And if it makes you feel better, I clearly have the bottom <10th percentile of 4470k chips.  I couldn't even get 4.2 GHz stable with 1.25+ V (wouldn't blue screen but spontaneously reboot 2-6 hours into stress testing).  Forced to settle at 4.1 GHz at about 1.23 V currently...ouch.  Was hoping for 4.3, would be OK with 4.2, not too happy with 4.1.  Hopefully you get a better clock than that!

Posted Today, 02:38 PM

 

 

Even Asus says that it is best to set vcore manually

 

I quote:

 

"Either way, dialing in an overclock using Manual Vcore to determine how much voltage the processor needs under full load is best -"

 

Here is a link:

 

http://rog.asus.com/...ountry=&status=

 

The quote is toward the end. They do say after you find your vcore manually if you want to use adaptive mode you can, but personally I do not think adaptive mode at high overclocks is a good idea.

 

If you use adaptive mode and your CPU gets hit with AVX instructions sets adaptive mode will increase your vcore by 0.1 without you even knowing about it. If your CPU gets fully loaded adaptive mode will also increase vcore.

 

If you want to use adaptive mode or use a utility that is fine. I do not use either and will not. Regarding a utility, I will enter settings manually so I know that everything is set to what I want. I am not going to let a utility decide for me what setting is best, especially when going for a high OC. Running a OC of 4.2 and letting a utility do the work maybe fine, but when I am running a OC of 4.7 I want to know what settings have been changed and I want to know that the settings I changed are not going to get changed without my knowledge. The 4770K and Z87 motherboards jack up the voltage enough as it is. My 1.33 vcore under OCCT stress test load is actually 1.36. If I used adaptive mode it would get jacked up to 1.43. This is why I think at higher overclocks adaptive mode is a bad idea.

 

Raja of Asus also states that if you are going to use AVX stress tests (OCCT like I use) then do not use adaptive mode. If you OC you really should stress test to make sure that your OC is stable and the stress tests that I use are AVX instruction sets. I know that you do not believe stress tests are necessary Martin, but I do and this is another difference of opinion that we have.

 

See Raja's post #225 here.

 

http://www.xtremesys...ode#post5198061

 

 

Were you referring to me?

 

That's nothing to do with what I was talking about. :smile:

 

Of course setting CPU voltage manually is a good idea. But that refers to overclocking in general. I'm referring to the use of the Asus overclocking utility in Turbo V Evo. JJ the Asus rep recommends using Turbo V Evo and then using that as a base line for further tweaking, and yes, you can then set the voltage manually. As I said previously, it's a valid technique to use Turbo V Evo and then tweak voltages manually. If you tweak them, you are setting them manually.

 

if you're worried about the utility using adaptive instead of off-set or fixed, then you simply change it to what you require afterwards. As I said, you tweak afterwards. Saves a lot of time and effort. I've never said I favour adaptive, in fact I said the exact opposite.

 

 

 

I know that you do not believe stress tests are necessary Martin, but I do and this is another difference of opinion that we have.

 

 

Sorry but we seem to be on the wrong wavelength. Of course I believe in stress tests. I have overclocked many times, and like you I have done so through the BIOS, and then stress tested thoroughly. If I were to use an overclocking utility in the way I said, then I would tweak voltage manually afterwards, and any other settings I wanted to cghange, and then stress test.

 

Conventional wisdom, is a great thing, but every now and again it's worth testing such wisdom. Clinging to it blindly forever without checking to see if it's still valid is the right way to miss something usefull.

Were you referring to me?

 

That's nothing to do with what I was talking about. :smile:

 

Sorry but we seem to be on the wrong wavelength. Of course I believe in stress tests.

 

Regarding adaptive mode, no I was not referring to you.

 

Regarding not believing in stress testing, I must be confusing you with someone else on Avsim in a different thread.

Well I have just been following NickN's UEFI setup and unfortunately for a 4.6 OC with Vcore @ 1.34 I am getting much higher cpu temps with the AIDA stress test than my first OC with Vcore @ auto - was expecting the reverse as Vcore @ auto gave actual Vcore from 1.35-1.45.  So back to the drawing board!

 

Bruceb

I have never heard of that happening to anyone before.  Did you change all the settings in your BIOS per the guide?

 

Below are the settings I had for 4.6GHz / 4400MHz for my Asus Sabertooth Z87.  Your Hero will have one more setting and that is Eventual CPU Input, this setting is covered in Nick's guide and from a quick review of the guide the value is the same as Initial CPU Input.

 

Your CPU and MB may need more voltage or less voltage than I did, the below is just to give you an idea.  Also the below if for my ram timings, you would need to adjust the below for your ram.

 

Also on the Maximus VI Extreme that I had I had to change to manual overclock before I could get the CPU C State settings to show up under the Advanced tab.

 

For your ROG board you will need to set SVID Control to enabled instead of auto.

 

__________________________________________________________________________

 

Enter the BIOS EXIT MENU and “LOAD OPTIMIZED DEFAULTS”

__________________________________________________________________________

 

BOOT MENU:

FAST BOOT: DISABLED

BOOT LOGO DISPLAY: DISABLED
POST REPORT: 5 SEC

SETUP MODE: ADVANCED MODE

BOOT OPTION PRIORITIES: SET AS REQUIRED

__________________________________________________________________________

 

MONITOR MENU:
ANTI SURGE SUPPORT: DISABLED
__________________________________________________________________________

ADVANCED MENU:

 

ADVANCED MENU > CPU CONFIGURATION MENU:
HYPER THREADING: DISABLED
 

CPU CONFIGURATION > CPU POWER MANAGEMENT CONFIGURATION MENU:

EIST: DISABLED
TURBO MODE: ENABLED
 

CPU C STATES: ENABLED
ENHANCED C1: DISABLED
CPU C3 REPORT: ENABLED
CPU C6 REPORT: DISABLED
C6 LATENCY: SHORT
CPU C7 REPORT: DISABLED
C7 LATENCY: LONG
PACKAGE C STATE SUPPORT: C3

===============

 

ADVANCED MENU > PCH CONFIGURATION MENU:
PCH CONFIGURATION > PCI EXPRESS CONFIGURATION MENU:

DMI LINK ASPM CONTROL: DISABLED

ASPM SUPPORT: DISABLED

PCIE SPEED: AUTO
===============

 

ADVANCED MENU > SATA CONFIGURATION MENU:

SATA MODE SELECTION: AHCI

===============

 

ADVANCED MENU > SYSTEM AGENT CONFIGURATION MENU:

CPU AUDIO DEVICE: DISABLED

SYSTEM AGENT CONFIGURATION > NB PCIE CONFIGURATION MENU:
Verified PCIe slot the card is installed into displays: X16 and the LINK SPEED is set to GEN3 for the 780

DMI LINK ASPM CONTROL: DISABLED
PEG ASPM: DISABLED

SYSTEM AGENT CONFIGURATION > GRAPHICS CONFIGURATION MENU:
PRIMARY DISPLAY: PCIE
IGPU MULTI-MONITOR: DISABLED

SYSTEM AGENT CONFIGURATION > MEMORY CONFIGURATION MENU:
MEMORY SCRAMBLER: ENABLED
MEMORY REMAP: ENABLED

================

 

ADVANCED MENU > ONBOARD DEVICE CONFIGURATION MENU:

Set as required

__________________________________________________________________________

 

AI TWEAKER MENU:

AI OVER CLOCK TUNER: XMP (Profile #1)
CPU STRAP: 100
BCLK FREQUENCY: 100

CPU CORE RATIO: PER CORE
Each core set to: 46

MIN CPU CACHE: 44
MAX CPU CACHE: 44

DRAM FREQUENCY: 2400MHz

CPU CORE VOLTAGE: MANUAL MODE
CPU CORE VOLTAGE OVERRIDE: 1.30

CPU CACHE VOLTAGE: MANUAL MODE
CPU CACHE VOLTAGE OVERRIDE: 1.30

CPU SYSTEM AGENT OFFSET MODE SIGN: +
CPU SYSTEM AGENT VOLTAGE OFFSET: 0.300

CPU ANALOG I/O VOLTAGE OFFSET SIGN: +
CPU ANALOG I/O VOLTAGE OFFSET: 0.050

CPU DIGITAL I/O VOLTAGE OFFSET SIGN: +
CPU DIGITAL I/O VOLTAGE OFFSET: 0.100

SVID CONTROL: AUTO

CPU INPUT VOLTAGE: 1.88

DRAM VOLTAGE: 1.65

CPU SPREAD SPECTRUM: DISABLED
 

AI TWEAKER MENU > DRAM TIMING CONTROL MENU:

Verify Memory Timings (Change as required): 9-11-11-31-1T

AI TWEAKER MENU > DIGI+POWER CONTROL MENU:
LOAD LINE CALIBRATION: 8
CPU POWER PHASE CONTROL: OPTIMIZED

AI TWEAKER MENU > CPU POWER MANAGEMENT MENU:
ENHANCED INTEL SPEEDSTEP: DISABLED
TURBO MODE: ENABLED

_________________________________________________________________________

 

F10 & SAVE

 

After reboot go back into BIOS and confirm all settings

Well I have just been following NickN's UEFI setup and unfortunately for a 4.6 OC with Vcore @ 1.34 I am getting much higher cpu temps with the AIDA stress test than my first OC with Vcore @ auto - was expecting the reverse as Vcore @ auto gave actual Vcore from 1.35-1.45.  So back to the drawing board!

 

Bruceb

Hope you have sufficient cooling for those kind of voltages!!

Hope you have sufficient cooling for those kind of voltages!!

Well it would seem so (Corsair H90) as I was getting lower temps when the voltage was set to Auto and the actual voltage varied from about 1.35 - 1.45 during the AIDA stress test which was stable for three hours. One other thing, ASUS recommends a maximum Vcore of 1.275- 1.280 at any multiplier a lot less than is in Nicks guide.  I'm about to fly over the ditch to NZ to catch with my son and 3.5 year old grand-daughter, but will get back to this when I return in a few weeks time.  Thanks to all for your input and best wishes for Christmas and the new year.

 

Bruceb

I do not know what Asus guide you are reading, but the 1.275 - 1.28 is more or less in line with what this guide says.

http://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?33488-Maximus-VI-Series-UEFI-Guide-for-Overclocking&country=&status=

 

If you read the section at the front of the above guide regarding the 1.275 to 1.28 vcore they are telling you that this range is recommended due to how hot haswell runs, they are referring to the core temperature of the CPU.

 

I quote from the above link "Using Vcore higher than 1.275V is not advised for 4 core 8 thread CPUs under full load as there are very few cooling solutions that can keep temps below thermal throttling point."

 

If you go read Nick's guide for the setup section for a 4.4 to 4.5 OC he states your max vcore will likely be 1.23 - 1.26, the section I got this from is posted below.

http://www.simforums.com/Forums/haswell-48ghz-on-air-building-a-haswell-system_topic46180.html

 

STARTING SETUP OUTLINE: 4.4GHz-4.5GHz:

 

THE HEAT IS ON: THIS IS WHERE YOUR TEMPS CAN BECOME A SERIOUS ISSUE REGARDLESS OF THE COOLING SOLUTION

 

If you are running a air super cooler or less than a Corsair H100 liquid system be very aware that your max CPU voltage will most likely be 1.23-1.26 or LESS and that assumes the ambient temp of the room is not warm and the CPU can run stable at those voltages.

 

This is the point where a CPU modification to the die cap will allow higher clocking at far cooler temperatures. If you can achieve the 4.4-4.5 clock fully stable and tested, you can then evaluate your CPU and if you wish to take the extended steps to modify it. 

 

Going back to the Asus guide posted above I quote:

"The kicker is finding a good processor sample. Not all samples will clock to 4.6GHz with less than 1.25Vcore. The voltage variance between samples is also larger than we’ve experienced in the past – luck is needed to land a good sample!"

 

So Asus says 1.25 for 4.6GHz for a good chip (I would say a really good chip) and Nick says 1.26 or less for 4.5GHz, but what they are both saying is that the max amount of vcore is tied to your max core temps under load.  They are not saying that this is the highest vcore you can use, they are saying that due to what your max temps are probably going to be this is as high of a vcore as you should go.

 

Most people that use a Corsair H110 or a Thermalright Archon SB-E x2 like I use will only be able to get to 4.4GHz before their temps under load get to high.  As recommended by Nick I use OCCT to stress test my OC's and that will make the CPU run a lot hotter than the Aida64 FPU stress test.

 

So up to this point from what I can see Nick and Asus pretty much agree on vcore.

 

Asus does not address an OC above 4.6GHz, Nick does.  At 4.4 to 4.5 Nick tells you that due to core temps you may or may not be able to reach this OC.  This is where your luck in the chip lottery comes into play.  Did you get a golden chip, above average, average or below average chip.  The more vcore your chip needs to run stable at any given clock is going to directly relate to how high your core temps are.  Also the connection between the CPU die and the IHS will come into play.  If you have a lousy connection then your chip will run hotter because it is having difficulty moving the heat from the die to the IHS and from the IHS on to your heat sink solution (H90 or SB-E x2 in our case)

 

Nick pretty much tells you that above 4.4-4.5 your are going to either be on a real high end customer water loop cooling solution or you will need to do the IHS mod.  The higher your OC the more vcore your chip will need.  The more vcore the higher your core temps will be.  The stress test you use to validate the stability of your OC will also define how how your core temps will get when stress testing.

 

Hopefully I have not confused the issue anymore.  You can go look at the table in the below link and see that most people need more than 1.26 vcore to even get a stable 4.4GHz OC and most of the ones that need less than 1.26 have a pretty low NB OC.  The chip that I have, at 4.5GHz CPU and 4400MHZ NB my vcore was 1.25 and I have an above average chip!.  At 4.7GHz / 4400MHz my vcore is 1.33 and I did the IHS mode, that is why I can run this clock using the SB-E x2.  You can also see in the table that most people running a 4.7GHz OC need 1.3 vcore and above.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1411077/haswell-overclocking-thread-with-statistics

Back from my trip across the ditch (AKA Tasman Sea) so an update on where I have got with this,  On my return the ADE64 trial period had expired so I had to use OCCT for further stress testing according to NickNs detailed guide.  What I ended up with was 1.25 vcore at 4.5GHZ and 4400MHZ NB.  So I will see how this pans out with FSX and revise if necessary.  This is with the H90 cooler and I suspect I could have stretched the OC further with a H100i or a H110.  However it was a conscious decision to go with the H90 as I get a very quiet system and the install was very straight forward - the downside being slightly higher temps.  After scanning the web there doesn't appear to be a consensus on the manual vs adaptive vcore debate.  There are those who say that, while manual has to be used for stress testing, you will never see the voltage spikes referred to earlier in this thread in any real world application with adaptive.  Still open to persuasion on this one.

 

One other little hassle the system time on my mb has frozen.  Turns out this is a common issue with Hero boards - at least with the C1 revision,  So if you in the market for a Hero mb make sure it is a C2 revision. There is a possible fix posted on the ROG forum and I am giving it a try.

 

Bruceb

 

 

After scanning the web there doesn't appear to be a consensus on the manual vs adaptive vcore debate. There are those who say that, while manual has to be used for stress testing, you will never see the voltage spikes referred to earlier in this thread in any real world application with adaptive. Still open to persuasion on this one.

 

 

This is something I need to consider with my new build.

 

What I'd like to know, is what sort of power saving does adaptive provide, is it really that useful? Isn't it about wattage too, and given the system isn't under load when adaptive would provide a saving, wattage would be low? or am I wrong?

 

I would consider adaptive, but then if I forget some time down the road, and run a synthetic stress test I might get caught out.

1.25 for 45/44 on Haswell is not bad.