HiHaving just spent christmas in norway, it struck me as we were flying back to stansted just how much i now hate flying when i'm NOT in control - looking out of a cabin window just isn't the same as looking out of the cockpit !!!Another observation was that as we were on finals into a busy stansted, why was i waiting for a drop in frame rate as the airport scenery and ai started to kick in !!! Ok well, probably me...Happy new year and enjoy your simmingGary

>Hi>>Having just spent christmas in norway, it struck me as we were>flying back to stansted just how much i now hate flying when>i'm NOT in control - looking out of a cabin window just isn't>the same as looking out of the cockpit !!!>hehe, given the constant questions about virtual cabins and wingviews it seems we're in the minority and a very large number of people just want to sit back in the cabin and let the autopilot (or FSNav) fly the aircraft.They're not in control ;)

Yes using a desktop flight sim can create and reinforce some very very bad real-world piloting habits.I see a lot of real-world student and certificated pilots who come in for biennials, IPCs and training that either use or have used desktop simulators for fun or some use to supplement their training/experience. Many (not all, but many) exhibit one or more very dangerous piloting habits, such as not doing a pre-landing checklist or failure to track vor radials accurately or entering a holding pattern wrong or going below MDA before reaching the MAP. When questioned about the origin of these habits, the student or pilot reports having developed or used while desktop simming (e.g. "that's what I do when I use my desktop simulator"). It takes a lot of work to replace these bad habits with correct procedures. Once the pilot/student learns the correct procedure, however, my own personal experience suggests that practice using the desktop simulator helps reinforce the good/desired habits, though.

Try flying in the real world, you get the same feeling of wanting to fly the thing yourself. :-lolI find I'd rather fly a slow and low Cessna 172 and get there hours later than I would in the airlines if I could afford to.----------------------------------------------------------------John S. MorganReal World: KGEG, UND Aerospace Spokane Satillite, Private 130+ hrs.Virtual: MSFS 2004"There is a feeling about an airport that no other piece of ground can have. No matter what the name of the country on whose land it lies, an airport is a place you can see and touch that leads to a reality that can only be thought and felt." - The Bridge Across Forever: A Love Story by Richard Bach

Me I find the opposite. flight simming has helped my situational awareness when driving cars. Or rather TrackIR. Though I have also got some bad habits. Remembering after obviously racing a bit to much with f1 2002 I found myself slip streaming the car in front of me to get an extra boost in overtaking. First time I have ever misstaken a Volvo for a Ferrari :( You should be close but you shouldn

I think if you're looking at a Private Pilot's Licence, FS can help and hinder in equal measure. Because the panel dominates the FS view, you fixate on it and don't look out of the window. When you get into a real aircraft, you stare at the panel rather than look out of the window, which isn't what flying VFR is about. The idea is that you use the horizon and outside cues to fly. My instructor used to yell at me all the time for flying on instruments all the time.But flying FS does keep you sharp. I didn't fly a real aircraft for nearly two years, and then did a couple of hours in the circuit. My instructor just sat there and looked out of the window, and after the first landing commented that he wished after two years of not flying he could do a landing like that.. I didn't have the heart to tell him that I had a go on FS every couple of days!

One day I was flying in a Delta MD80 on an approach to an airport that I can't remember now ( I fly a great deal commercially), and I noticed that we were pretty low and slow , and the pilot had still not deployed any flaps. It looked to me like we were about 1500 AGL Finally I said to the Flight Attendant in a rather concerned tone as I pointed at the wing, "shouldn't we have some flaps out by this time?" Now the passengers sitting around me are looking at me and her waiting to see what she says. She replied," the pilots know what they are doing, I'm sure, and should extend the flaps pretty soon". About 2 seconds later the flaps started to come out, as she walked away.. I was pretty quiet after that, and have not made any comments to the flight attendants since then :)

Well, they say pilots make the worst passengers, and I think that applies to flight simmers as well. I always find myself second-guessing what the airline crews are doing and becoming a bit nervous at anything out of what I consider the ordinary. That said, flight simulation has helped me quite a bit with my real world flying. From general aircraft handling to procedures, general aviation knowledge, and so on I can't stress how much FS has contributed to my real world flying. Now that I'm working on my IFR rating, I use the Flight 1 Cessna 172R more for practice than I do my flight schools simulator. But, the number one thing I've gotten out of flight sim is ATC communications. Flying on VATSIM over and over has made me perfectly comfortable and competent with r/w ATC, which so many pilots at my airport struggle with.So overall, I'd say FS is much more a help than a hindrence for r/w flying, at least for me. Yes, I tend to over-fixate on the instrument panel too, but it really didn't take me that long to get out of that habit, and now that I'm learning IFR that's not a no-no anymore...-Marc

In my flight training phase. I'm required to fixate on the panel because I have a hood on these days. Ah, the joys of IFR training. :-lol----------------------------------------------------------------John S. MorganReal World: KGEG, UND Aerospace Spokane Satillite, Private 130+ hrs.Virtual: MSFS 2004"There is a feeling about an airport that no other piece of ground can have. No matter what the name of the country on whose land it lies, an airport is a place you can see and touch that leads to a reality that can only be thought and felt." - The Bridge Across Forever: A Love Story by Richard Bach

"Because the panel dominates the FS view, you fixate on it and don't look out of the window."The Virtual Cockpit is your friend :)

"Do flightsimmers make bad flyers ???"They can. Of course, I've known a few RW pilots who were dumb as fence posts... and some of them have taken up residence in the side of mountains.Point being... this or any other top quality sim can be a training aid. If used properly and within common sense limitations.Cheers,Greg

"Do flightsimmers make bad flyers ???"Not especially. But they can make for rather arogant learners who find it hard to listen to instructors in the early hours. I would be suprised if any accomplished simmer took much more than minimu hours for a PPL. However being a good aviator, like many things, is mostly about attitude with stick'n'rudder skills following up in second place.

"they can make for rather arogant learners who find it hard to listen to instructors in the early hours."I can imagine that. I'd say it would be very annoying for the instructor to have a student who already thinks he knows everything cause he's been playing a flight sim game for a couple of years. I mean it's like someone who's learning to drive saying he already knows everything because he's been playing Need for Speed :-lolActually this has been one of the things I've thought about because I'm going to have a few introductionary glider flights next summer (was meant to do them last summer but it got delayed due to a bad aircraft crash) - anyway I have decided I'll not mention that I've been "flying" flightsims for almost 10 years. I'll just listen to everything the instructor has to say without interrupting him with "I already know that"'s even if I feel I already do know certain things. I'm sure that even though FS/FU/X-Plane have teached me much of the basics there are certainly bits and pieces that I may have completely missed or never bothered with because "it's just a sim".

"I would be suprised if any accomplished simmer took much more than minimu hours for a PPL."Talk about arrogance. ;-) So I guess it is the simmers that make a large part of the I-got-my-PPL-in-40-hours crowd. :D It took me 63 hours to get my PPL (USA national average: 67 or 69, don't remember). I guess this doesn't make me "an accomplished simmer," although I've simmed quite a bit before then. It has always irked me how people boast about how little time it took them to get their ticket, as if that by itself was a tribute to their airmanship. But you're right in your last statement: the attitude and stick'n'rudder skills are most important. And FS can give you plenty of the former and too little of the latter...Still, procedurally and in terms of situational awareness (navigation)FS can be an invaluable tool. It's all about being aware of its limitations. Short of owning a full motion simulator, it may take any simmer a good while to come to terms with all the physical feedback and forces the PC sim cannot really simulate.Michal

From a Fantasy flier:I'm 59, retired, and have medical conditions which preclude obtaining any kind of a pilot's license. Doesn't matter, I really enjoy this sim. All my memories of flight are as a passenger, so I work my flight simming toward that end. I love airliners, autopilots, glass cockpits, autoland and just about anything else that can make me more like a passenger enjoying the view. But, along the way, I learned a lot about aircraft that I would never have known and it has been fascinating. However you use this sim... ENJOY !!!Happy New Year !!!Bob