Sign in to follow this  
brucek

Landing a cessna at large international airport

Recommended Posts

In FS9, I like to start trips from Schiphol airport(eham), Amsterdam, since I live in Amsterdam. I land there too, and all that in GA aircraft like the Baron, Lancair Legacy, etc. Schiphol is a large international airport, so I was wondering is this is realistic. Would they, under normal circumstances, let me mix in with the big guys with my slow and small private aircraft , or would the say "sorry, too busy, too dangerous, too slow, go to a local airport "? Does a real pilot have the answer to this? Gerwin

Share this post


Link to post
Help AVSIM continue to serve you!
Please donate today!

Hi Gerwin,In the US at least, you (as a small GA aircraft pilot) have as much right to land at any big airport as the captains do of the airliners. However, you can be sure that the controllers will not be happy with you, as they will need to sequence traffic to accomodate your slow speed. You could also expect the controllers to be talking fast and in terms that you were not familiar with in the clearances they issued to you, and once you accept the clearance then non-adherence could become a violation issue for you. Things might become easier if you were instrument rated and filed a flight plan to land there. But that still would require that you be able to follow the controllers in their clearances.In the US you must be a qualified private pilot to obtain the landing priviliges. Student pilots are allowed in Class Bravo but need some recency with a CFI prior to attempting this.You would also most likely have landing fees to deal with. So, short of an emergency, I doubt if this would be a good decision :).Thanks,Bruce.

Share this post


Link to post

In the US and Canada (I can't speak for Europe), even the big airports are "public use" ... meaning it's perfectly legal to land my Skylane at Boston, JFK or Dulles.I have landed my C-182 at Logan in Boston, Dulles (Washington, DC), Dorval (Montreal) and Pearson Intl in Toronto. At each of these airports, the controllers were friendly, courteous and quite willing to accomodate me ... in spite of the fact that my top speed is less than vref for most of the big boys.In most cases, I was shunted to a parallel or crosswind runway rather than screw up the landing flow for the airliners, but nary a complaint and certainly none of the attitude I half expected from the controllers. As long as you behave professionally, listen and follow directions you are more than welcome at the larger fields.Of course, you'll pay for the privilege. I landed at Pearson on a trip to Toronto because customs was not available at City Center (the GA airport on the lakefront) after 9:00. It cost me $225 in landing and parking fees for one night at Pearson. It cost me only $50 for the next 4 nights at City Center. Which explains why most of the time I'll choose a nice little GA airport over the big international fields.My favorite "big airport" story was when I was taxiing for takeoff at Dulles. As I approached the main terminal ramp I was looking at the nosewheel of a British Airways 777 easing out toward the taxiway. The ground controller called up the 777 ...Ground: "Speedbird XXX, if you poke your head out the window and look W-A-Y down to your right you'll see a little itty-bitty Cessna making his way down taxiway Zulu."777: "In sight, Speedbird XXX"Ground: "Good .. because YOU, sir, are going to hold for HIM."Ground: "Skylane 182LU, do you see that enormous aluminum structure painted white with red and blue stripes attached to the tire at your 11 o'clock?"Me: "Uh ... affirmative, 2LU"Ground: "Well that's a Boeing 777, the largest twin engined airliner in the world ... and he's going to be kind enough to hold for you!"Later as I approached the departure end of Rwy 30, I got this call ..Ground: "Skylane 182LU, can you accept an intersection departure at Zulu? ... You'll have 9,875 feet remaining on the runway."Me (chuckling): "Yeah, it'll be tight, but I think I can make it."Ground: "Thought so ... continue on Zulu, contact tower and let 'em know you're ready to go"Who says controllers don't have a sense of humor :)

Share this post


Link to post

If you want to practice landing in a Baron or other small aircraft at large international airports you may want to maintain the highest gear-down speed possible for your aircraft (flaps up) at least up to the middle marker and then transition quickly to slow flight lowering flaps and slowing down. It can be done and is something that you can practice well in FS9.Michael J.http://www.reality-xp.com/community/nr/rsc/rxp-higher.jpg

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks for the replies and specially for the incredible stories and the photograph. I really appreciate this guys! Was all I needed to know.

Share this post


Link to post

>Are touch and goes free?>>Jim>CYWGYes, they are. The only problem is they are not allowed ;-)Michael J.

Share this post


Link to post

Most if not all, big international airports have GA ramps open to light aircraft.The first big distinction from the big guys is: VFR or IFR? Most airports have different traffic flows for IFR and VFR traffic.Next: how easily do you get arrival and departure slots? do you wanna depart with a GA VFR pleasure cruise during peak hours, you might get difficulties to get a slot in the traffic.But usually ATC is very forthcoming and helpful trying to squeeze you in.Re. Touch and goes: usually they cost landing fees (you do land and require ATC), but it's very rare tower approves on a busy airport.Stephan

Share this post


Link to post

MOst of the time it's all in the controllers working you in. I have had the pleasure of having MD-80's go around due to me being on short final in the past :) Most of the time you end up on a differnt runway (if possible) or your pattern is flown in such a way that all ATC needs to do is make you an opening to land. I also try to oblige by spending very little time on the runway- long landings (not on the numbers) so that I can hit a high speed taxiway and the like.ATC here in the US is very accomodating, nad I certainly try to make their lives easier. FLying in the Boston Classb usually begins with gettingt he clearance and finding out where the traffic flows aren't!Tim

Share this post


Link to post

Martin, I had a similar experience departing KSTL during a Friday evening push. We were in a USAF T-41A (Cessna 172) and cleared to depart on 30R. Tower told the 4 engine jet on 30L to hold for the Cessna as we were to turn left to 270 degrees after departure and climb on course. Well not wanting to hold up traffic, I started my turn at around 100 feet agl. The tower came back with "you could have waited till you had some altitude before you turned." I just said we wanted to get out of the way as quickly as possible and that the heavy was burning more fuel waiting on us than we had burned on the entire flight. On another flight to KMCI in a T-41 that still had the old Stars and Bar Air Force paint, we were sequenced behind a 727 and had 2 more 727s behind us. As stated in one of the other threads, sometimes you have to fly your approach at or above normal cruise speed in order to blend in with the traffic. Thank goodness for high speed turnoffs.Terry

Share this post


Link to post

Last summer I flew a Cessna 172 from MKC (Kansas City Downtown) to MCI (Kansas City International). I hold a private certificate with no instrument rating. Regardless of the fact that I know the controllers, they actually encourage (somewhat) GA aircraft to fly up there providing you are accomodating and sensistive to the traffic levels. I think they like it because it breaks them out of their usual routines of 180 kts down the slope type aircraft. KMCI is also listed as one of the Class B airports that a student can land at with an endorsement in his/her logbook. I believe the bigger Class B airports like St. Louis and KLAX are not authorized for student flights and you must have your actual private pilots license. The bottom line is you need to first be aware of your particular airports general procedures regardless of the rules. Yes you do have the right to fly into any public use airport (even some military airports will let you land as well), but it's always good practice to call the airport a head of time if you're in doubt. You'd be suprised at what kind of service you can recieve if you just ask. "if possible" or "traffic levels permitting" or "at your convenience" <<- if you're just flying around for fun. If you're on an actual filed flight plan your flight plan is your Class B Clearance as well.Ah...I almost missed the touch and go part: I was also issued a "cleared for the option" meaning I was able to touch and go's and not get charged for them. I believe landing fee's are charged by gross weight at KMCI (I'll double check). I couldn't believe they were going to let me do touch and go's..lol...I declined however to be nice to them...but I did land mid-field in order not to take to much time on the ground roll.Just some more input.

Share this post


Link to post

I guess I'll throw in my story here...It was the day before my commercial checkride, when I discover to my horror that I was missing 10 night solo takeoffs and landings at an airport with an operating control tower. I thought that requirement done. But it was missing... :( So begins the search for an airport in Southern California in July that has as operating control tower at night. No problem right?But since sunset wasn't until 1930, takeoffs and landings don't count as night takeoffs and landings until 2030. And control towers in Southern California start closing at 2000 or 2100. So I was left with 3 airports that were open late enough for me to complete my 10 landings at night: San Diego Lindbergh Intl, Los Angeles Intl, and Ontario Intl. Complicating the situation was the daily marine layer, which was forecast again for the night at Lindbergh and KLAX, both of which went IFR by sunset - 300ft ceilings tops at 1500ft. I didn't think I could get SVFR at KLAX or KSAN. Ontario however was forecast to be clear.So Ontario is the airport I need to go. I called up Ontario tower and asked about doing the 10 night landings...The makings of an accident investigation dance thru my head...I departed at San Diego Montgomery at 1930 and arrive at Ontario at 2040, there were already 3 airliners lined up on land... the string of pearls."Ontario Tower, Cessna 1234A, I'm the crazy guy that called earlier and I'd like to do 10 landings in your pattern.""Roger, make left traffic, 26L, number 4 for landing, I'll call your base, report midfield downwind."I pass an MD-80, A320, and a 737 who land before me... What's that wake turbulence technique they taught me a long time ago? After one landing full stop, the tower tells me that I can do one more take-off and landing but I have to leave because the nightly cargo aircraft departures were about to happen at 2100...I plead with the controller: I can loiter in the pattern, extend downwind, hold on the ground, do acrobatics, I'll do whatever you want except leave.... please let me do 9 more landings... Pretty please? You're my only hope...."Standby..." "Umm I'm going to have to ask you to do stop and go's for your landings.""Sure not a problem..."A 747 lands in front of me. All I see are the wheels that flash by my windscreen. My little Cessna shudders."Without delay cleared for takeoff 26L, 737 on 3 mile final""Rolling"As I turn downwind, I see UPS 767s, 747s and MD11s powering up and taxiing down to 26L like lumbering cattle and lining up for their turn to takeoff."Cessna 1234A, can you accept visual separation?" Visual separation? What's wrong with visibility? I can see these planes okay... "Sure Cessna 1234A accepts visual separation."That night I learn the true meaning of visual separation ... I just relieved the controller of responsibility for separation for wake turbulence. Although I didn't realize it at the time, that's what the controller really wanted. He wasn't worried about me colliding with another airliner."Cessna 1234A, it'd actually work better if you can do touch and go's..." Hmm I don't think I have to do full stop landings... just landings with the darned control tower."Cessna 1234A can do touch and go's."For the next 90 minutes it took to get my next 9 landings, I danced with UPS, Southwest, America West, and other airliners. I did 360's in the pattern, extended downwind, landed long, and one by one, got my 10 landings in. Before I left the pattern at Ontario: "Ontario Tower, Cessna 34A, last landing, request left downwind departure.""Cessna 34A, cleared to land, left downwind departure approved.""Ontario Tower, Cessna 34A, thank you very much for your assistance .... and patience." "Not a problem 34A, have a good flight."While I was in the pattern at Ontario, only one other small GA aircraft, a Bonanza, flew in to do a touch and go.So while not as busy as LAX or SFO, I was quite surprised to see all the larger aircraft traffic at Ontario during my 90 minute period there.The only other story I have was when I was living in Okinawa and I flew the Base Aero Club's 172s and 182s on Kadena AB. I thought it was neat to mix it up in the pattern with F-15s and KC-135s. :)Woodreau / KMVL

Share this post


Link to post

A far as I know, Schiphol has got its own runway for GA aircraft (I can't remember the designator, have to check it tonight in FS2004 -) ).That's the reason, why EHAM's new runway is referred as the 5th runway by many people, although it is actually EHAM's 6th runway - the GA runway is just not counted by those folks, although it has quite a reasonable size and would be long enough to serve for the heavies.Wolfgang

Share this post


Link to post

Look in the latest Private Pilot magazine (in stores now) to read how a private pilot in a GA aircraft landed at KLAX! he actually did all the airports in the LA basin area, a remarkable day's flying. Part 1 is in this issue which includes KLAX. He did have serious doubts, but made it in early on one Sunday morning.Bruce.

Share this post


Link to post

That's excellent if one can do it and send the bill to someone else (his editor) ;-)Michael J.

Share this post


Link to post

Yes, you're right on there!Wouldn't it be cool to do a coast-to-coast (many multiple hops) and have it sponsered? :)Bruce.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this