The first question,

 

I saw a youtube video on setting up the PMDG, (cold and dark), It looked pretty good, but in one part the guy said that the packs must be off for take off.

 

Quite often when I have been using FS2Crew there is option in the brief to have the packs and bleeds on or off, which might imply that they don't have to  be off.

I understand that having them on can reduce the power, because the resources needed from the engine. I have been taking off with packs and bleed on. Usefully on a long runway like EGKK 26L.

 

 

The other question is what is the best way to use the thrust modes in the CDU for the departure below?

 

I have tried two different ways.  The first is to make the acceleration height a lot higher than to 2000f so that when I turn the aircraft on the u-turn it is nice and slow.  It still ends up being to hot and the speed rises to 220k and there is a tendency to over shot the bend and be off the DET 260 course.

 

The other method I was experimenting  is using the cutback option, and this seems really smooth and controlled, but almost too slow. Once round the bend I am still 150K (is this right)?  The flaps are still at five. Then it restores when past 2000f. 

 

What are peoples desired setup for really tight turn SIDS?

 

 

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-249E4D975622264D43DD491357A4754C/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/Charts/AD/AIRAC/EG_AD_2_EGKK_6-1_en_2013-11-14.pdf

 

 

but in one part the guy said that the packs must be off for take off.

Quite often when I have been using FS2Crew there is option in the brief to have the packs and bleeds on or off, which might imply that they don't have to be off.

 

"Must be" is false, unless he gave some condition like a max performance takeoff, or something else.

 

You are acting normally in leaving the packs on AUTO for departure.  It's special circumstances that require packs to be off.  This is why I HATE YouTube videos that people refer to.  They say "you must, you should, you shall, you can't," and other things either without understanding what they're talking about, or not telling people why they "must" in that circumstance.

 

 

 

What are peoples desired setup for really tight turn SIDS?

 

If your concern is speed, don't climb in VNAV because it's going to be doing all kinds of things behind the scenes, as you're seeing.  Climb on FL CH with whatever speed you want set in the window, or climb on V/S + SPEED (to ensure you don't blast through altitudes on that SID because at EGKK, that could get you in a load of trouble, or a load of metal).

 

Your MCP is a toolbox.  VNAV is a cool tool, but it doesn't work for all cases.  Use a different tool, or set of tools.  If I need to get a broken lightbulb out of its socket, I'm not going to use a hammer, I'm going to use a knife and a potato.

Thanks for the reply so quick.  I tried to do this departure a while ago, and recorded it.  And I tried to hand fly the first turn, just using the A/T. I assume all the thrust modes work without
the CMD A?

 

 

I still managed to bust through the bend and go a little over 4000f. It said 4000 or below by DET 29, but the cross hair was aiming up looking for 5000f ,  I didn't use and MCP modes, except L-NAV armed, Then switch on CMD A later on. 

 

I do make the odd video, not so I can teach,  but so people can teach me.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JzJqFjTDoI

For real tight turns I like to stay takeoff flaps and wait to accelerate around the turn, no sense speeding up going the wrong direction, right? 

 

The book says for a miniumum radius turn, maintain V2+15 to +25 with takeoff flaps.  After completion of the turn, and at or above flap retraction altitude (800ft AFE normal/3000ft AFE ICAO noise), reduce climb rate and retract flaps on speed schedule.  So in this technique you would most likely use LVL CHG, set V2+20, make turn, set VM0 - retract on sked.

 

A technique you can experiment with (L2 Method), if you want to use VNAV, is input VM0 (vref40+70) on the TGT SPD line L2 - VNAV climb page.  Then when you are ready to accelerate - simply hit ECON prompt.

For real tight turns I like to stay takeoff flaps and wait to accelerate around the turn, no sense speeding up going the wrong direction, right? 

 

The book says for a miniumum radius turn, maintain V2+15 to +25 with takeoff flaps.  After completion of the turn, and at or above flap retraction altitude (800ft AFE normal/3000ft AFE ICAO noise), reduce climb rate and retract flaps on speed schedule.  So in this technique you would most likely use LVL CHG, set V2+20, make turn, set VM0 - retract on sked.

 

A technique you can experiment with (L2 Method), if you want to use VNAV, is input VM0 (vref40+70) on the TGT SPD line L2 - VNAV climb page.  Then when you are ready to accelerate - simply hit ECON prompt.

 

I guess there are different ways to flog a horse. I could try this as well.

I did try another method, using cutback, I'm not sure how standard it is but it worked.  Cutback, seems a lot more controlled.

 

Even vertical speed and flight level change seems more controlled than anything else.

 

 

I'm going to use a knife and a potato.

Now why would you need a potato for a broken lightbulb?  :huh: :lol:

 

 

I assume all the thrust modes work without the CMD A?

 

Remember that AP and AT are separate systems.  They may share information (commands - like FL CH and VNAV command both throttle positions and pitch), but they are separate systems.

 

 

Now why would you need a potato for a broken lightbulb?  :huh: :lol:

 

It's for if the glass part of the bulb gets broken off and the threaded (metal) part is still in the socket.

 

Cut the potato in half, and then press the flat side into the socket.  You can then twist and it'll pull the threaded base right out.

It's for if the glass part of the bulb gets broken off and the threaded (metal) part is still in the socket.

 

Cut the potato in half, and then press the flat side into the socket.  You can then twist and it'll pull the threaded base right out.

 

 

Huh, that's something new I learned today. I'll keep an old potato or the equivelant in my toolbox now. Thanks  ^_^

Now why would you need a potato for a broken lightbulb?  :huh: :lol:

That was going to be my next question, but you beat me to it.

How would you fly this this SID Kyle, just as a ball park guess, what sort of thrust, derate, acceleration heights, etc etc,  Would you choose?

 

 

So in this technique you would most likely use LVL CHG, set V2+20, make turn, set VM0 - retract on sked.

 

LVL CHG should capture that speed, so you don't really need to set it, right?

 

 

 

The other method I was experimenting is using the cutback option, and this seems really smooth and controlled, but almost too slow.

 

This isn't really a cutback.

 

I'd probably keep it at V2+20 or Vcl. If you think the climb rate is too high, use V/S.

 

I noticed on the video you were not following the FD. I'd try to get that thing to do what you want, if you can. You were overspeeding (the flashing A134 on the MCP) because it was trying to get you back to V2+20. Either stay in T/O mode or exit it, but don't do it half-way.

 

Note the tailwind you had, too. That didn't help with the turn radius.

I noticed on the video you were not following the FD. I'd try to get that thing to do what you want, if you can.

 

 

I'm wondering if the SID was wrong in the legs page. The charts says crossing DET 4000 or below by D29. I only noticed this in mid air, which doesn't help.  I remember ATC having words with me for climbing too quickly on this SID. I would have yo look at the SID loaded up in the FMC. Maybe it was set up at 4000A.

 

 

 

 

Either stay in T/O mode or exit it, but don't do it half-way.

 

 

Do yo mean just using the A/T?  You might have to elaborate here.

 

 

Quote

Either stay in T/O mode or exit it, but don't do it half-way.





Do yo mean just using the A/T? You might have to elaborate here.

I was not talking about A/T. Leave those on.

 

I think you were still in TOGA. I couldn't tell what the FMA was. So, at acceleration alt,  normally you'd select LVL CHG or VNAV and clean up. In your video you were accelerating the but MCP was still bugged for V2. That's what I mean be being half  in T/O mode. You're accelerating, but you haven't told the plane that you're going to.

 

I'd try this:

 

1. Figure out which NADP that runway uses, and stay with that profile.
2. Clean up, but stay at Vcl
3. If the ROC is too high when you're getting toward 3000', switch to V/S for a smooth level off.
4. Use the A/P until you come up with a profile that works well. Remember: airlines have special manuals that the training departments share about tricky airports. You don't have that luxury, so don't feel bad if you can't figure it out right away.
5. If you're still busting that turn at Vcl, try staying at F1 or even F5. I'm surprised that SID doesn't have a max speed coded on that leg.

Cheers!

I was not talking about A/T. Leave those on.

 

I think you were still in TOGA. I couldn't tell what the FMA was. So, at acceleration alt,  normally you'd select LVL CHG or VNAV and clean up. In your video you were accelerating the but MCP was still bugged for V2. That's what I mean be being half  in T/O mode. You're accelerating, but you haven't told the plane that you're going to.

 

I'd try this:

 

1. Figure out which NADP that runway uses, and stay with that profile.
2. Clean up, but stay at Vcl
3. If the ROC is too high when you're getting toward 3000', switch to V/S for a smooth level off.
4. Use the A/P until you come up with a profile that works well. Remember: airlines have special manuals that the training departments share about tricky airports. You don't have that luxury, so don't feel bad if you can't figure it out right away.
5. If you're still busting that turn at Vcl, try staying at F1 or even F5. I'm surprised that SID doesn't have a max speed coded on that leg.

Cheers!

 

 

 

Ok I think I know what you mean.  Maybe I should of bugged the speed in the MCP to 132 +20 then the flashing would go away.

 

You noticed in the video that I changed the acceleration height to 2000f, what if it was a bit higher to 3000f, this would hold the speed back a lot more until I go round the bend?

 

So are you saying flying this SID  company policy? I can't really see much on this in the tutorials. Somebody kindly sent me a video, demo on YT about NAP.

This is why I'd like to be a fly on a real cockpit wall. I fly this route a lot with different set ups, different result. A lot of the SIDs at EGKK, are U-turn.

 

Also I better check the programed SID is correct in the first place, as the cross hair had other ideas.

There is some info about how to fly such departures in FCTM.

 

Short version, keep V2+20 and TO flaps until finishing the turn.