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Need help with STARS

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Hi there are two stars I need help with to understand.  One is the Lynnx eight arrival into KBUR.  It says after VNY got to expect vectors.  Now I don't really understand this since from VNY got to KBUR is like 7 miles.  I've seen a few other stars like this where it takes you to a got or ndb near the airport that is only a few miles away and then to either turn final or expect vectors.  I don't see how this is possible.  I'm also using radar contact to fly this star.  Thanks in advance.

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What's the problem? Once overhead VNY, ATC will give you radar vectors accordingly. They won't give you a direct vector to the airport! What they do is vector you to get you comfortably into the ILS, or if weather is good and airport is in sight, you can fly visually into the runway and land.

 

For instance, if you arrive into KSFO, San Francisco, the STAR usually leaves you on SFO VOR (right over the airport) and at 6000 ft, from there on ATC vectors you away, around and back into the airport. Not a big deal.

 

"Expect radar vectors" means exactly that: you'll get vectors to the final approach course.

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It's just that to me that it seems like a tight turn to final unless ATC sends you elsewhere first to get lined up??  Would Radar Contact handle this accordingly?

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Are you usually flying in Europe? In Europe you never get to see these "expect radar vectors", neither on STARs nor on SIDs, but they are very common in the USA. While in Europe the whole route is published on the chart and the STAR takes you from an enroute fix and leaves you right at the IAF where you can start your instrument approach right away, in USA the STARs don't always connect to the IAF, but instead leave a gap that will be filled with ATC vectors. That's why having route discontinuities on the FMC's LEGS page is more common in the States.

 

Also you may have noticed that there are tons of published charts on European airports, there's a specific chart for each runway, each STAR, each type of navigation... USA published procedures keep it always very simple. It's not uncommon to have ONE single SID chart for every runway in a major airport, the procedure being the same for every runway and every departure fix: "Expect radar vectors to assigned route/fix". In the USA they rely heavily on their ATC, in Europe they rely on published standard procedures.

 

In FSX there's no ATC (I'm not taking the default ATC into account cause that's useless). What I do when flying a procedure which says "expect radar vectors" is being practical: I'm my own "ATC" and I vector myself :)


Say I wanted to fly the ILS/LOC Z into RWY 08 at KBUR. I'd reach Van Nuys (VNY) VOR and then just vector myself to either the IAF or the final approach fix, or I'd just fly visually if on VMC.

 

In case I wanted to fly to the IAF, I'd do something like this, first turn south for a few miles to separate from the runway centerline, then turn into a sort of downwind, and then a 150º turn into TOAKS to comfortably intercept the LOC at a 30º angle.

 

Iqe1XlK.png

 

Or you could fly from VNY direct to SILEX and enter the published holding while continue descending and start your approach from there...

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Oh hey that helps a lot.  And I do most of my flying in the USA in actually.  Also if you don't mind I had a question about this star too.  It is the Arlin three arrival into KPHX.  The star ends at Tukee and says to expect vectors.  The IAF for runway 26 I believe is at Cerrun.  To me the only way to fly that would to be I guess to go on a downwind to Cerrun and then fly in?  Thanks again.  

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To me the only way to fly that would to be I guess to go on a downwind to Cerrun and then fly in?  Thanks again.  

 

There is not only ONE way. You can vector yourself as you wish as long as you keep safe altitudes. In real life ATC might vector you in a completely different way from one arrival to the other, even to the same runway. 

 

You could fly a sort of "traffic pattern", with a downwind leg, base and final. You could fly on the localizer in the opposite direction and then do a procedure turn, you can fly visually if under VMC... There's no ONE way of doing things.

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If you are using radar contact you can request the full ILS approach. Also what you can do and I know it isn't exactly realistic is just eliminate any vectors in the flight plan and the plane will just go to the next way point and in this case it sounds like that would be the runway. 

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Sportsfan23 thanks I'm going to try that out next time.  Even if you don't request the full   ils approach are the vectors still pretty accurate?  Thanks again.

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The best thing about FS ATC is you can make it do what you to want if you know how.

 

If I was flying the ARLIN 3 into KPHX and wished to land on Rwy 26 I would take a leaf

 

out of the RNAV (GPS)Y Rwy 26's book and carry on from TUKEE and make IWA my IAF.

 

So either fly the RNAV Y Rwy 26 approach or write an ILS rwy 26 approach with an IWA transition. :Nerd:  

 

Whoa!….my first FSX post and I don't even use it! :lol:

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That sounds pretty cool thanks for the suggestion.  Without writing transitions for the airports in fsx are you still capable of flying transitions for every approach you do in fsx?  Thanks a lot!

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ap1 I know nothing of FSX. What I do know, is I that never fly vectors by FS ATC and the

 

FS9 approach database out of date ...as is FSX's. I write new (up-to-date) approaches

 

(transitions) pretty much every time I fly (IFR).

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Thanks for the post and replies. I am going to use vectors on my next approach into KLAS. I have been flying from KSLC and just shooting a straight in ILS approach. I will admit for sometime now I have not been using ATC. I will investigate Radar Contact as I assume this is heads and shoulders above the default ATC

 

Thanks again

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This discussion reminds me of the ILS 7 approach into Barrow via the BRW transition, which sits right above the airport.

 

http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/BRW/IAP/ILS+OR+LOC_DME+RWY+07/pdf

 

You are vectored 259° over the ocean then must make a u-turn of sorts to follow the ILS back in on a 71° course. This transition is the safest approach. It's in Alaska, so weather is usually bad, and Barrow is on the coast. BRW transition always allows one to spot the airport and get a visual reference on it before heading over water for the final approach. In darkness or in bad weather, once you are over the water there are no visual references so getting that first glimpse of BRW can be a major help.   

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You go girl! a lot of simmer's poo poo FS ATC.  Radar Contact does not control my AI

 

traffic as well as FS ATC. 


This discussion reminds me of the ILS 7 approach into Barrow via the BRW transition, which sits right above the airport.

 

 

 

Welcome to the future RNAV (GPS) rwy 7  ……OBCIN transition. (IAF)

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Edetroit i don't update fsx.  I fly with gps and plug in Sid and star waypoints into the flight planner and use radar contact for IFR.

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Welcome to the future RNAV (GPS) rwy 7  ……OBCIN transition. (IAF)

 

Hehe, I guess I'm a little old school. If it doesn't have morse code, how can I trust it?  :ph34r:  ILS 7 also has lower minimums. I might give RNAV 7 a shot next time around though. 

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Hehe, I guess I'm a little old school. If it doesn't have morse code, how can I trust it?  :ph34r:  ILS 7 also has lower minimums. I might give RNAV 7 a shot next time around though. 

 

I am very much old school as to the aircraft I like to fly, but I do think the new RNAV RNP approaches are a great aid to RW flight safety (I fly these with the IFLY 737) 

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Hi there are two stars I need help with to understand. One is the Lynnx eight arrival into KBUR. It says after VNY got to expect vectors. Now I don't really understand this since from VNY got to KBUR is like 7 miles. I've seen a few other stars like this where it takes you to a got or ndb near the airport that is only a few miles away and then to either turn final or expect vectors. I don't see how this is possible. I'm also using radar contact to fly this star. Thanks in advance.

About three years ago, I flew into KBUR while riding in the jumpseat of a GIV. It was via the Lynnx Eight arrival. As you probably know, that STAR serves both VNY and BUR. The weather was clear, and aircraft landing on KBUR runway 08 were conducting visual approaches. Once we cleared the mountains to the north, SoCal approach had the aircraft descend to 3000 feet, direct VNY VOR "report the field in sight". The Burbank airport was clearly visible even before we overflew VanNuys. The pilot had configured the aircraft at flaps 20, gear down before arriving at VNY.

 

We did make a 90 degree left turn, directly onto the KBUR runway 08 final approach course right over the BUDDE intersection, descending via the PAPI visual approach slope. In fact, we were handed over from approach to KBUR tower for landing clearance as soon as the pilot had visual contact with the airport.

 

The 5.5 distance from VNY to the KBUR runway threshold, with a 90-degree turn to final may not seem like a lot, but it is more than adequate for even for a jet aircraft, as long as the crew is familiar with the approach, has configured the aircraft properly, and (most importantly) the approach is being conducted in visual conditions.

 

Now if the weather conditions had required the full ILS, then I'd assume that would indeed involve vectors to the west to come back around for the localizer intercept somewhere around SILEX or TOAKS.

 

If you want to get a good idea how vectors work on a STAR in real-world ops, download the Flightradar24 app (if you have a smartphone or tablet) or visit the Flightradar24.com web site, and watch ADS-B equipped aircraft arriving into KJFK via the LENDY SIX arrival. LENDY is only 23 nm from KJFK, yet arrivals will cross this fix while still at FL190. By following a specific aircraft on the arrival (and displaying the ground track) you will get a good idea of the many and varied ways that aircraft will be vectored to whatever runway(s) are active at KJFK, descending and slowing all the while. If traffic is heavy, you will often see that no two LENDY arrivals are vectored quite the same... the controllers do whatever they have to do to fit everyone in to the flow.

 

Flightradar24 is even better if used in conjunction with LiveATC.net tuned to the facilities of whatever airport you are monitoring.

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Jim thanks for that answer.  So I guess it is possible to do that lol.  I guess the planes that use the ils in there do get vectored back west.  Interesting to know.  Thanks again.

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