Amen to that. Very well said!! BTW, the arguement that the stealth forum exists so that users don't have to wade through posts from non users is just so spurious - as someone else has said give non users read access only and problem solved.Bruceb

And thank you for replying. I appreciate it.It still sounds like a bit of an inconvenience to use several workarounds, but since I don't own it, it won't affect me. :-)Sonar5

No Problem.

First of all, anyone who has ever used an FMC knows that there will always be a route disco after the star (usually) and after some IAP procedures, no matter what the aircraft. I get them in the PMDG and all others. It's no big deal.All you have to do is take that last waypoint-click on it-then click on the blank spot (the route disco). That will clear that up. You don't want to take off with any route disco's anyways. You'll notice on your ND that your route will now be a solid line.Just make sure that your waypoints are the ones you want to align as evenly as possible between transitions from STAR's to the approaches.You all know what I mean.Now in my humble opinion, and to be fair, after using the LDS 767 for a few hours now, that this aircraft, with the exception of an incomplete D-Base for sids/stars and IAP's, is a pretty good product. You can easily obtain charts and manually input your routes for now until they get the dbase sorted with navdata.As for the 'stealth' forums, I would imagine they are doing that so they can keep better track of their customers without having to ask for your invoice/proof of purchase on every question. You'd have to ask them on that issue.Keep in mind also, that most users problems are more from lack of knowledge rather than actual bugs. That's why their beta team are so prevelant in their forums trying to help everyone out.The actual bugs they have said they are in the process of fixing (not many for a first release). I was able to fly it straight off the server with no problems on the first run.The do have a general forum which is viewable to all guest where you can still see issues and questions.I also don't think it's neccessary or required, nor would I think it's fair for them to "review' their own product in a 3rd party forum anyways. I know I would feel very weird if I had to review my own product here in Avsim. How credible would I come off? I'd rather have an independent user do the review or "first impression"Now, I'm a direct competitor of LDS, but I do know one of the developers, but regardless, what's fair is fair, and I think we need to keep that in mind here folks.Enjoy the product, learn a little, and don't be afraid to post ligitmate and constructive concerns about any product. I think we can have fair and civil discussion about payware, freeware or whatever and give our first impressions without having to start flaming and get a thread locked.As I've said before, I'd rather hear from the person who bought our product and is mad than the ones who love it. The reason being is that only a very few percent of the mad people actually complain, and those are the ones we want to reach and try to help, because those are the ones who might have an actual bug we'll never know about before it's too late. Don't get me wrong, it's nice to hear from everyone, but you get my point.Thanks for listening.P.S. Oh yeah, to the person who said they wouldn't take their car into the dealer for service, I can tell you as a Chrysler dealer you might invalidate your warranty and some codes a car might throw are increasingly becoming proprietary now...LOL

So ask for a refund Andy. They will gladly give it to you.

If I have ever seen a molehill made into a mountain then it's this thread...

LOL...that's the phrase I was looking for!

To Each His own. :-)I guess folks can hardly wait until every developer out there adopts the same policies, so no one will ever be made aware of any potential problems before they purchase, huh?Then all we'll have here in these forums are the glory posts, and every developer will be happy, and then only the customer bears ALL THE RISK. Good for the developers, bad for the customer, IMHO.Well, in terms of buyer beware, this is one developer I will stare clear of for the time being. :-)What you folks fail to realize is that I feel quite a few people may just buy the same way I do.I research a product first, read the support forums, NEVER buy it right after release because it is usually flawed, needs patches, and why be a public beta tester when the beta testers that maybe didn't pay couldn't figure out these flaws beforehand. I'd rather wait for a patch or two, and the bloviating hype to die down, and then consider a purchase, and this goes for all my purchases.That way, my expectations are rarely dissapointed, and I gain a good product in return.BTW - Ever wonder how a mountain begins, they don't just shoot right up.Sonar5****************Grab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

Hey Sonar,With 2 aircraft of our own coming out, I hear what you're saying, and personally I would rather keep our forums open for all to view as well.I think we should consider however, that they have probably received an extreme amount of downloads. I mean so much that they may not have any choice but to try and limit the viewing and/or posting requirements to registered users just to keep an administrative handle on things so they don't miss anyone.If you look at these threads in their general forums: http://www.leveldsim.com/forums/forum_topics.asp?FID=4 you can clearly see other people have posted problems where everyone can see. This is their General Discussion forums. It also appears that most support topics have been addressed here as well. I don't think they're trying to hide anything here.If it was me and I was looking to the future, I might not, nor my team might not have the time to respond to actual support issues from people who don't own the product. We have to take care of the paying customers first. This is why the actual support forum is for people who own the product. This does not mean that there are different or secretive posts in the actual support forums.All this means is that they are trying to take care of the paying customer. they are also responding in their general forums it would appear.This is the way I see it, but you can always ask them. That's probably the best policy here rather than us trying to guess at it.I can understand it may 'seem' to appear differently though.I appreciate your comments, but I will say again to everyone, let's keep it civil and maybe we can actually discuss the issue and learn from it.Uh oh, another moountain is growing here...lol.

HiI`ve come to the conclusion that it really does`nt matter weather people like the LDS or their support policies.There is a nice little community forming over there that includes a general access forum that is full of people that are saying what they think.@ Capt AndyI really think you should ask for a refund as it seems you are not really brite enough to deal with LDS as you can`t even seem to be able to leave the DEP/ARR page when you are completed.I also think that you posted over here and worded your post carefully to incite people against LDS even though you have been told that your problem is being addressed.All I can say at this point is that I completed two flights todayEKCH/EGLL offline EGLL/OMDB online and had trouble free flights with autolands in both cases (testing).@ Kurt,That was funny as all getup despite what the user with the picture says.;)Troy

OK, so there are 2 small issues, 1 that not clear route disco's causes FPS drop,and leaving the page open at the depp/arv page will also do the same.Let's not forget that another exceptional addon the F1 ATR, also had issues with clearing disco's, but in this case it didnt just drop the FPS it took the whole sim down.Nothing is perfect, but the 767 is as close as anything as been to perfection in the FS world.Dan.

RE: To "DIANNE S"No. I will not go "bother someone else".The complaints by Sonar has been beaten to death in as many threads as he can.....and what is the result? The forums are still private to customers only and they will remain like that.I'm not telling him that he can't complain. What I am saying however, is that life continues and people are enjoying themselves while he continues to complain about something that is in MY opinion quite trivial. I am at the point where I would like to give him my username and password to the private forums so that he can go in there and see that there's no "Conspiricy" to fool the public into believing that a horribly buggy product is great and bug free. Doing that however would probably get me banned from there and quite frankly, that wouldn't be worth it.The developers for whatever reason decided to make their support forum for customers only. Its the same with the RFP747 support forums. And both LDS and RFP share one of the same reasons. It would be quite easy to post links to patches/updates in the support forum secure in the knowledge that only legitimate customers has access to them. This has been done many times in the RFP747 forums. From updates/patches to livery packs. One of the developers of the LVLD767 did mention that they would probably be doing the same thing. That won't be possible with a completely open forum.FACT1: The Forums are closed to non-customers.FACT2: If you purchase the program you can access the forums and read all about the "deception" for yourself.FACT3: You can then get a FULL refund from Flight1 and steer clear of LVLD in the future. You can even purchase the CaptainSim 767 that will be released soon.OPINION-1: If you and Sonar5 had purchased the product then accessed the forums, I strongly believe that you wouldn't be thinking of asking for a refund. I strongly believe that you would be happy with it. I also believe that you wouldn't be complaining about the closed forums either.Now, Sonar5, the Flight1 wrapper system has this feature where I can use my credit card and purchase a liscense as a gift for someone else. If I do this and purchase the liscense in your name, and email it to you so that you can install the product and finally access the closed forums would that make you happy? Its only $40 to me.....if you don't like the airplane or what you see in the forums, you can just delete it. I wouldn't even ask for a refund from Flight1. If you do like it....then keep it and have fun with it. You don't have to pay me anything. If you're interested then PM me and I'll set it all up. Then you'll finally see that the closed forums is not some elaborate attempt to deceive the public into purchasing the product thinking that its perfect while its riddled with bugs that make it non-flyable.:-wave

Anthony,Thank you for the offer but it's not necessary to go to that extent. :) All I was asking is that you respect other people's opinions without mocking them here. No two people agree on everything, gosh knows, but diversity in experience, judgment and opinions are what makes a public forum like AVSIM so useful. :)I'm sorry if I was terse.I'm sure the Ld 767 is a great product and I wish everyone involved with it continued and long-lasting success, developers and customers alike. Have a very nice day :)

Oh dear here we go again with the locked forum.... :(When will it ever stop?Can I have the keys to the house your selling, even though I havent bought it yet :)Jason

Hey guys. I find it funny we go through the same thing EVERY single time a product is newly released. Anybody that has good memory can remember the following first release debacles: 767 PIC, Lago mad dog 2000, Capt. sim 727 (this one was classic!!), Wilco Airport 2002, Wilco A320 PIC, PMDG 737NG, PSS A3XX and A330/A340, THE LIST GOES ON AND ON. Get the point. First releases really tick off a lot of people, then the product matures and for the most part, people are satisfied.Me, Level-D 767 is the first time EVER I have bought a v1.0 FS add on. I was scared to death! So far the gamble has paid off for me. I really feel for those who are having problems. I have been there and it is frustrating. Nobody should be having to go to the extremes some people go around here (like re installing an OS) to get a dinky add on to work.Off the soap box,-W