NGX update?

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

Sorry my maturity didn't measure up for you Kyle.

 

I was just pointing out the lack of logic in the response.  It may not have been the answer you were looking for, but it was still an answer.  Calling that person a forum cop only serves to make you look childish, and inflame a situation unnecessarily.

 

The forum has been in a terrible state, absolutely, but Google is pretty solid:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1LAVE_enUS396&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=site%3Aforum.avsim.net%20PMDG%20ngx%20sp2

 

^ Ten pages of stuff about SP2.  Sounds like there's quite a lot of info already out there.

 

 

We'll see. Don't forget that the 737 was released 3 years ago and is therefore a relatively old piece of software.

And I can't see that it will make much commercial sense to PMDG to release free of charge an update that has taken a ton of resources to develop.

 

Don't forget the guy who posted what he did is a Beta tester and probably knows a lot more about all of this than anyone in this thread...

[phrgflyer 50]

Kyle,

 

In a way, I agree with   

 

Another self-righteous forum cop.

 

there is no way, that people with over 1,000 posts got to the number of posts without asking the same question that has been asked before. 

 

There are way too many people posting on here that feel that they can FLAME anyone they want to and suffer no ill effects.

 

I thought that this FORUM was a place that people could ask questions....so what if they have been asked before....just maybe, someone else was wanting to ask the same question and gets an answer.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[whoispankaj 51]

First thing is it did not take me more than 1 page deep to find above threads on my mobile..second is multiple threads on same day asking the same question???third thing is as i mentioned in one thread there is not even a start date assigned forget the due date..this question just doesnot make sense even for next 3-4 months..if everybody starts a different thread each of its own we will have 200-300 threads on same day..as kyle says the forum can lose its posts deep down ..not Google..last if u see my post i post every few comments..have joined way back and been a mere spectator reading this forum and kearning from you all..but even being silent it really becomes tough to ignore commenting on recent trend in posts..how much ever i try to restrain..and at the end i m not a forum cop..just frustrated seeing the same questions over and over..being lazy,impatient ,1000 post deep etc etc is no excuse for using google..heck i found the post 15-20 deep..thsts it..and at the end sometimes u really need a cop because otherwise the entire world on road would start becoming chaotic..

Sometimes i feel Avsim should really charge 10 cents for every question on update that we ask..haha..just old sarcasm here..

And i dont think that my original reply was FLAMiNG the op..there was no personal comment being directed towards him.it was a mere information that it has already been discussed a lot before..a hint to use the search to get his reply..but unfortunately the text cannot get the tone across and people get agitated

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

I thought that this FORUM was a place that people could ask questions....so what if they have been asked before....just maybe, someone else was wanting to ask the same question and gets an answer.

 

Sure, but this is the most basic, and unfounded point people make...way too often.

 

You're right in that this is a forum where people can ask questions.

 

That point fails to address a more important point, though:

If people are allowed to ask the same question over and over again, without fear of getting a little chiding for it, people will never do their own homework.  Time, though, is a limited resource, as is the space on page one of each forum.  If you let this go unchecked, then you have a whole bunch of people asking the same question over and over again.  The result is that people answering questions have less bandwidth to answer the question that haven't been asked before.  Additionally, those questions that are more worthy of a forum discussion could get dropped onto page two and beyond and never even seen.

 

Why?  All because people are too lazy to take a few minutes to check and see if it's been discussed before.

 

Yeah, to a certain degree, a forum is a place to come together to discuss things.

It's up to the members of the forum to drive how those discussions go, though.  Do we want to make this forum a repeat of an FAQ page?  ...or do we actually want to use the forum to capitalize on the knowledge that is in the user group?

 

I'd argue that the latter is more appropriate and useful.

 

 

 

If I had a chance to meet Albert Einstein, I wouldn't go up to him and ask him about his theory of relativity.  That's knowledge that's out there.  Instead, I'd make that time more useful and interesting by engaging him with questions that aren't as easily answered.

[ClearedtoLand 149]

Kyle, you raise some interesting points, a few of which I am not sold on.

 

You say that without chiding, people will not learn to do their homework. This assumes that chiding is either the only or the most effective way of encouraging people do 'their homework'. This is not my understanding of how the human mind works, particularly given the myriad emotional responses that result from being chided, a good few of which will actually produce results counter to what you wish to achieve. And that is before we touch on phenomena such as cognitive dissonance or confirmation bias, both of which are totally immune to chiding, and may in fact end up reinforcing the chided person's belief that what they did was right. Plenty of examples of that in the scientific literature.

 

The part about limited bandwidth is a more valid point because that is not subjective.

 

Calling people lazy because they didn't do a search on AVSIM or Google regarding a simulator hobby is going to be difficult to defend logically, given that you have no additional information about those persons available regarding how they approach other topics on which they need information. The chances that you are right about a person being lazy based on a single act on a hobby forum has, as with all other conclusions drawn from meagre samples, a very low statistical probability of being accurate.

 

Regarding whether we want to make this forum a place where the same topics are discussed over and over again, well, I think that again is a statement that can be called into question. Simply, take the number of repeat questions or subjects and divide that by the number of new or unique questions and subjects and that will give you an indication of how this forum is utilized. In my few years on here, the ratio is certainly more in favour of new or unique topics in higher numbers against repeat questions and topics. However, if you can provide me with numbers showing the opposite, I am not going to argue against it.

 

Even so, there are plenty of people who are willing to answer those questions again, and also people who answer the question for the first time. If we are to chide people for repeating questions that have been asked previously, what are we to make of people who are willing to answer those questions again without impatience or irritation? For as long as there are people who are willing to answer repeat questions, there will always be a good reason to ask something that has been asked before, which makes it essentially futile to try and chide people for doing something that will get a result. Unless we start chiding people for answering repeat questions as well.

 

And as for Albert Einstein, well, would you ask him a question based on what you think is something not easy to answer, or on what he thinks is not easy to answer? And if it is the latter, how exactly would you know what his standard is without being as knowledgeable about physics and as smart as he is?

[phrgflyer 50]

 

 

If people are allowed to ask the same question over and over again, without fear of getting a little chiding for it, people will never do their own homework. Time, though, is a limited resource, as is the space on page one of each forum. If you let this go unchecked, then you have a whole bunch of people asking the same question over and over again. The result is that people answering questions have less bandwidth to answer the question that haven't been asked before. Additionally, those questions that are more worthy of a forum discussion could get dropped onto page two and beyond and never even seen.

 

One person may have searched, but used the wrong parameters, so they ask a question that they did not see in the forum.  Not all people CHEAT on tests.  There a lot more people out there that will research a problem or project rather than ask a question for the simple reason, they will either get FLAMED by the TROLLS that have no clue as to what is going on.

 

Why do the people that are part of the testers, seem so touchy about people asking questions?  When I was teaching people how to work on aircraft in the USMC, I had to answer the same question multiple times, due to some people not being able to pickup on how something is done as fast as others.

 

There is no reason for members on this FORUM or other FORUMS to get nasty and disrespectful of other people, just because they can write anything the desire.

 

A lot of the people that are not in the cliche here get FLAMED because they are new and ask a question that has already been asked.  This not the way to help people.

[voodoo101 21]

This thread is getting too heavy and deep. The basics are this;

 

The question has been asked many times and answered by people on this forum. There has been no official word from PMDG, however the fact that they have not said anything should be an indication that there is no news to tell, this is how it has been in the past and there is no reason to think that things have changed.

 

A simple search on either AVSIM or Google will help people with most questions to peoples answers, this save you having to retype the question, whatever it is, and save people answering the same questions over and over. This includes things like OOM, frame rates, liveries and updates.

 

This is a PMDG support forum, to me this means that it is there to help people who have problems with PMDG software. Yes it is used for announcements from PMDG, information from the beta team. It is not really for general chat, although we are all guilty of that, however asking the same questions over and over again, makes true support post disappear quicker.

 

It's not a case of forum police, but the fact that people get fed up with the same things over and over. People who give up their free time to try and help people, share knowledge and experience to answer questions for free. I think the title of this forum should be "It will be ready when it is ready", which is what is said by PMDG every time the mention something new. Keep asking does not make them work quicker, if it was me then I would slow down production just to make a point.

[ClearedtoLand 149]

This is a PMDG support forum, to me this means that it is there to help people who have problems with PMDG software. Yes it is used for announcements from PMDG, information from the beta team. It is not really for general chat, although we are all guilty of that, however asking the same questions over and over again, makes true support post disappear quicker.

 

Can true support not be provided in a repeat question? I have seen that done on numerous occasions. I have benefitted from that on numerous occasions as well, since I was brought to that repeat question through performing a search.

 

And if every topic can be found through the AVSIM search function or through Google, then how can any true support post really disappear, would they not still show up through a search as you advocate users to do? In which case, does it really matter, other than for reasons of bandwidth as Kyle mentioned, if people repeat a question or a topic?

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

Calling people lazy because they didn't do a search on AVSIM or Google regarding a simulator hobby is going to be difficult to defend logically, given that you have no additional information about those persons available regarding how they approach other topics on which they need information. The chances that you are right about a person being lazy based on a single act on a hobby forum has, as with all other conclusions drawn from meagre samples, a very low statistical probability of being accurate.

 

Nice try at getting into statistics, but let's be real here...

 

Searching first requires work up front by the individual.

Not searching requires less work (at least in their minds).

 

People are usually pretty averse to expending energy (psych fact), and follow the path of least resistance.  The very fact that they didn't search is tacit proof of laziness in the situation.  Nowhere in my post did I mention that laziness could be extrapolated to other aspects of their lives, so I'm not sure where you were going with that point.

 

That's pretty logical.  It might not have statistical backing, but logic doesn't have to include statistics.

 

 

 

Regarding whether we want to make this forum a place where the same topics are discussed over and over again, well, I think that again is a statement that can be called into question. Simply, take the number of repeat questions or subjects and divide that by the number of new or unique questions and subjects and that will give you an indication of how this forum is utilized. In my few years on here, the ratio is certainly more in favour of new or unique topics in higher numbers against repeat questions and topics. However, if you can provide me with numbers showing the opposite, I am not going to argue against it.
 
Even so, there are plenty of people who are willing to answer those questions again, and also people who answer the question for the first time. If we are to chide people for repeating questions that have been asked previously, what are we to make of people who are willing to answer those questions again without impatience or irritation? For as long as there are people who are willing to answer repeat questions, there will always be a good reason to ask something that has been asked before, which makes it essentially futile to try and chide people for doing something that will get a result. Unless we start chiding people for answering repeat questions as well.

 

Other than being difficult, what are you trying to prove here?

 

You're essentially proving my point.  Notice that you're sending me off on a wild goose chase to track down the stats you want.  I made a statement.  If you'd like to prove me wrong on a statistical level, then by all means, do the work yourself.  The very fact that we're in this debate, though, is proof enough that it's an issue (otherwise I wouldn't be arguing about this for the 72nd* time).

 

There may be plenty of people to answer the question over and over and over and over again, but that doesn't mean that it's a worthwhile use of time (or forum space, for that matter).

 

I could very easily sit at a pool all day and soak up the sun.  Lifeguards get paid to do this.

I could also try a little harder and get paid more to do different work all day.  I get paid a lot more to do this.

 

It's not that people are willing to do it.  It's that it's a worthwhile use of time.  If we're all okay to sit here and play Tier 1 help desk (that's the Tier where you resolve stupid issues like "did you turn your monitor on?"), then hey, that's cool.  The problem is that there is a clear resistance to that (otherwise people wouldn't mention the search function).  Instead, these people seem to want to keep the forum for discussing things that actually need discussion.  In other words, they seem to want to use the forum to discuss things that are not easily answered with the tutorials, or a simple forum search.  More difficult support issues, and more educated discussions?  We should all be for that.

 

Instead, we just have a bunch of apologists to defend people's lack of initiative.

...because, regardless of whatever statistical "proof" you want to leverage, not reading the intro manual is selfish lack of initiative.  Plain and simple.  Nobody forced you to buy this plane, but it's okay for people to demand that other people should hand feed them information?  I'm not okay with that.

 

*Made up value

[phrgflyer 50]

 

 

A simple search on either AVSIM or Google will help people with most questions to peoples answers, this save you having to retype the question, whatever it is, and save people answering the same questions over and over. This includes things like OOM, frame rates, liveries and updates.

 

So this is not for everyone to ask a question, unless they have first searched the forums or googled for an answer? 

 

Then what is the purpose of having an support forum?

[scandinavian13 5,192]

So this is not for everyone to ask a question, unless they have first searched the forums or googled for an answer? 

 

Then what is the purpose of having an support forum?

 

That's really an unsupportable argument.

 

The purpose of having a support forum is to discuss the issues people are having.  Issues evolve, and new products create new issues to discuss or knowledge to impart.

 

If people didn't ask the same questions all the time, then the knowledgeable group would have more bandwidth to deal with the more difficult issues.  Instead, we're still stuck answering "hey, why does my NGX not have a HUD?!?!?"

[voodoo101 21]

Sorry Harry, I think the answer to your questions is in the title, it is a 'Support' forum, as in for support, but that's not the answer you want because that would be the end of it. You want a more descriptive answer so you want then take things out of context to keep it going. So for you I will humour you and put this in the most basic term I can, which will clarify what Kyle is saying, what I am saying and what many other people say. This is what most people with an ounce of commons sense does;

 

If you have a problem that you feel you cannot solve yourself then search on your favourite search engine, mine is Google. This will search not just this forum but other flight sim forums. Chances are that somebody out of the millions of people that fly FSX will have asked the same question and it would have been answered. This is why we have search engines in the first place, the clue is in the title of that as well, 'search'. It is the same reason that shop's have webpages with search engines, to save you contacting them with 'have you got' questions.

 

If by chance that it is a new product and you cannot find an answer then you go to the Support forum and you can ask. The reason that people have a support forum is so the answer to problems are posted where people can search and get the answer. If they did not have a forum then you would have to ask the question by sending them an email, once they answer you then they would have to answer everybody over and over again.

 

For people to keep asking the question over and over again, or to post the same thing of 'use the search', negates the use of a forum.

 

Furthermore, every time somebody from PMDG has to answer 'it will be ready when it is ready', takes time away from the development of what ever people are asking for.

 

So to put it more basic;

 

A search engine is for searching the support forum for support. The support forum can then be used to the best advantage of having a support forum.

 

I do hope that this clarifies the situation for you.

[phrgflyer 50]

OK, Kyle,

 

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/361816-pmdg-forum-rules-please-read-before-posting/

 

In the above link,  There is nothing about asking searching the forum or google. and as paragraph 8 states:

 

8) This forum is designed primarily as a vehicle for the PMDG development team to interact with our customers, and for customers to interact with one another in a manner that is positive, supportive and assists in the general advancement of understanding the simulation and helping to make this and future simulations better. Any other use of this forum is not permitted, including but not limited to discussion of PMDG pricing policies, refund policies, business practices, forum moderating policies, and any other topic deemed unacceptable by any forum administrator, AVSim moderator or staff member.

 

I will say nothing else on this topic.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

In the above link,  There is nothing about asking searching the forum or google. and as paragraph 8 states:

 

There is nothing in the rules of life about holding the door open for the person behind you, but I still do it.

 

Why?

 

Common courtesy.  Same concept here.  I'm not going to join a car club and immediately pester them with "so I was having these issues with my car."  Car forums are an even tougher place, usually, because (for whatever reason) they tend to really drive (haha) it into you from the very beginning:

 

We made a sticky with common issues for your car.  Read it.  If it's not in there, ask.  If it is, and you're having trouble, ask.  If you didn't read it, and you ask, then you're going to get a nice verbal beating...

 

They went out of their way to help you by putting that knowledge out there.  Do them the courtesy of checking first.  It's not a forum rule.  It's a life rule.

 

 

 

...and before someone starts harping on me for "common courtesy" including being nice:

Note how I react to those who say "so I checked the manuals, and" or similar, versus those who just launch into their issue.  One shows understanding of people's time/efforts, the other does not.  If someone doesn't show appreciation for others, I don't usually go out of my way to show it back.

[whoispankaj 51]

Well lets end this up here itself..If I were the poster asking for NGX update and due to performance upgrades with AVSIM if the search doesnt come up with the right answer/or had performance issues here is what my response would be "

 

"Oh..Ok Thanks for letting me know..Will search again when avsim is back to shape" instead of  calling someone a forum cop.

 

I am sure many would agree that this should have been a better response than just plainly calling someone a forum cop who had tried to redirect the user to a search with no personal attack directed towards him.I rest my case with this.

 

Pankaj