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max2770

My first time crashing the T7... (and first accident in years)

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Well, I crashed.  Had a very uneventful flight (ACA832 CYUL-EBBR), but on approach to Brussels, I was greeted with intense thunderstorms that made the airspeed surge from almost stall speeds to overspeed.  It was quite joyful.

 

Well, the speeds went around a lot, and I disconnected the AP first, and then the AT because I was nearing stalls, had the shaker a couple of times - still, no windshear warning.  I should have called a missed approach.  I didn't.

 

Right over the runway, I was stuck in a massive, extreme downdraft, impacted the ground gear first at 1600fpm.  Crash detect might be off, I know what that means.  It hits me because I try to be a safe sim pilot, I'm training for my PPL in real life, and I realize I made a bad call.

 

Be safe, even in virtual skies!

 

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Crashed for the first time ever. Happened in WSSS last week from Brisbane on A6-ENG. I've written the aircraft off(deleted from the pmdg 777 folder). Experienced a stall 400ft AGL trying to land on 20R and smashed into the ground at 1400fpm in an attempt to land in the stormy weather. Learnt my lessons.

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If you are using Active Sky Next, what it sounds like you had hit there was a microburst, they tend to hide in thunderstorms and they are VERY deadly at low altitudes. There is a special version of Air Crash Investigation that you can watch on youtube, I high recommend you watch it as its very informative. There is a reason why a majority of pilots do not like to fly through CB's especially on approach or landing.

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If you are using Active Sky Next, what it sounds like you had hit there was a microburst, they tend to hide in thunderstorms and they are VERY deadly at low altitudes. There is a special version of Air Crash Investigation that you can watch on youtube, I high recommend you watch it as its very informative. There is a reason why a majority of pilots do not like to fly through CB's especially on approach or landing.

 

Yes, I think that's what it was.  ASN really is incredible.  I will watch that episode for sure, thanks!

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Yes, I think that's what it was.  ASN really is incredible.  I will watch that episode for sure, thanks!

Never knew ASN was capable of doing that which is why I wasn't expecting it.

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I don't know why the predictive windshear didn't go off though - I had alerts in the past and avoided those situations, but this time, it never went off.

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Active Sky Next is pretty accurate in the simulation of microbursts, sometimes a microburst will not set off windshear warnings until its too late, and there have been situations where no windshear warning was given in a microburst. The really scary thing about mirobursts is that they are in effect undetectable, even with high gain penetrative RADAR systems. There are tell tale signs to look for but nothing that can guarantee that you are looking at a microburst, the general idea is to stay out of high density CB's when on approach.

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CFIT on approach to PHNL. It was my first flight in many months. I cited lack of situational awareness, lack of currency in the aircraft, plain negligence, bad piloting, and anything else I could think of as the cause of the accident.

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I don't know why the predictive windshear didn't go off though - I had alerts in the past and avoided those situations, but this time, it never went off.

 

 

sometimes a microburst will not set off windshear warnings until its too late, and there have been situations where no windshear warning was given in a microburst.

 

Just something to remember (T7 FCOMv2: 15.20.24 p. 1248/1249):

(quote) "In flight with the WXR switch pushed or not pushed, weather radar begins scanning for windshear below 2,300 feet radio altitude and PWS alerts are enabled below 1,200 feet radio altitude." (quote end)

The weather radar changes to a PWS capable scan mode below 2300 ft AGL,  but there will be no PWS alerts above 1200ft AGL.

 

Extreme example: when entering a windshear on approach there won't be a warning even after recently having passed the outer marker (LOM)...

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Thanks for that explanation. I was just going over that section too. It is entirely possible that I was under 1200 AGL.

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Thanks for that explanation. I was just going over that section too. It is entirely possible that I was under 1200 AGL.

 

I am not familiar with the AP systems on the 777, however, from the ACI video I do know what a MB when at 1500 AGL or lower has a very high chance to become fatal. This coupled with what was just said by vr-pilot makes for a very bad time indeed. ASN really does know how to make a pilot scared and sweat about 10lbs on approach with inclement weather.

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Here is a video of my friend landing into MHTG just before me on Vatsim a month or so ago, he had ASN running and hit a microburst on very short final and it didn't end too well. I ended up going into a hold for about 20 minutes while I waited for the microburst to die down and shot the approach and landed safely.

 

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a bit like my approach to EGCC, which is my home airport, CB's on the area, 773 was being thrown EVERYWHERE disconnected AP/AT hand flew, and I was having trouble just keeping her straight, on the flare it seems the plane was thrown on the runway, no warnings of windshear etc etc.. bang -962ft slammer on the runway, I hope it was ASN  and microbursts and not my flying... :huh:

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ASN bugs, cool, but not realistic.

 

Hi,

 

And how do you backup this statement? Because I haven't seen any microburst/windshear related bug reports submitted to us or any other reports about it non being realistic. Do you actually know what a microburst is? If you don't, I'd suggest go study about them and then judge how realistic or unrealistic ASN implementation is.

 

If you know, you'll certainly know about all the properties it has (the applicable range, the windshear intensity, the centrifugal nature of the winds, the strong downdraft in close proximity to the ground, the "invisible" nature of it). In this case, please be specific about what it is in ASN implementation that you think is not realistic and we'd be happy to listen and improve upon it (if actually a valid point is made).

 

Some things are simply not a matter of a subjective opinion ("I like this more than that"). They are either correct or wrong. To achieve a realistic result in a simulator a developer has to adhere to the laws of physics and strictly defined specifications that are documented by extensive real life studies (like the ones NASA has done for microbursts)  and only use subjectivitiy (from personal real life experience and/or feedback from experts) to fine tune the result. The core specs/implementation though are a given and they do not change. 

 

BTW, the video in post #13 does not show a microburst, but wake turbulence. This is a completely different effect and obviously this is not detected by the predictive windshear function of the radar. 

 

Thanks,

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Whatever the video shows, no aircraft should behave like that when hitting a weather effect, very jittery movement, very digital, very unrealistic.

 

My experience with ASN turbulence in general is very poor, in large ac I often do not get any, in GA aircraft, the ac can be shaken to pieces and become unflyable, even in a fairly clear day.  I am using it to enjoy the WX radar in the 777, but so far if I fly GA I switch to FSGRW which gives an incredible feeling of flying through moving air, better than any other programme I have tried, I have them all.

 

In ASN I have wake turbulence off, I might try it on again but I had so many problems with it in AS2012 (aircraft was getting wake from an aircraft many nm ahead, or even an aircraft waiting to takeoff!) that I just leave it off.

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I think the ASN turbulence settings are a bit harsh as standard. I've turned them down a bit, works very well, I have FSGRW too but can't get myself to fly with anything else than ASN now.

 

I've also experienced the wake disaster in AS2012, never had it in ASN.

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Hi,

 

And how do you backup this statement? Because I haven't seen any microburst/windshear related bug reports submitted to us or any other reports about it non being realistic. Do you actually know what a microburst is? If you don't, I'd suggest go study about them and then judge how realistic or unrealistic ASN implementation is.

 

If you know, you'll certainly know about all the properties it has (the applicable range, the windshear intensity, the centrifugal nature of the winds, the strong downdraft in close proximity to the ground, the "invisible" nature of it). In this case, please be specific about what it is in ASN implementation that you think is not realistic and we'd be happy to listen and improve upon it (if actually a valid point is made).

 

Some things are simply not a matter of a subjective opinion ("I like this more than that"). They are either correct or wrong. To achieve a realistic result in a simulator a developer has to adhere to the laws of physics and strictly defined specifications that are documented by extensive real life studies (like the ones NASA has done for microbursts)  and only use subjectivitiy (from personal real life experience and/or feedback from experts) to fine tune the result. The core specs/implementation though are a given and they do not change. 

 

BTW, the video in post #13 does not show a microburst, but wake turbulence. This is a completely different effect and obviously this is not detected by the predictive windshear function of the radar. 

 

Thanks,

 

I for one have been using ASN now for 4-5 months, I did the free 7 day unlocked trial (which BTW is a PERFECT way to sell the product, that is 1 thing that sold me). However after using REX Weather, FSX Default, OPUS (which is a good WX system), and even FSGlobal WX (which is accurate but just does not "feel/look" right), I have to say that ASN brings the best realism to a WX engine. I have not run into any microbursts as I try to stay away from intense storm systems on approach, however I have experienced some wake turbulence and I agree that it is a bit strong, that being said it is impressive that ASN even brings this as a feature that works in FSX. The ASN team in my honest opinion are the best in the business when it comes to WX integration. I recommend to most people to use ASN for the WX and REX4 for the textures, the combination of the 2 is almost sheer perfection.

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ASN is perfect. I agree that the trial is amazing, it also sold me in 2-3 days. It's also extremely tunable, although I'd love 'profiles' to quickly change settings according to the situation.

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I'm not bashing the product, using it as much as possible and experimenting with settings.  

 

The one thing missing is the small turbulence you feel flying in even still air, I wouldn't even call it turbulence, but in any aircarft there is always a need to move the controls to counter the air movement, this is missing from ASN, many flight feel like you are driving a loco along rail line, trim it, walk away and it would land itself.  This is the strong point of FSGRW, it's not perfect but it nice to see the airspeed and vsi move a little on there own, not jerk around digitally.

 

I do live how ASN doesn't have any sudden updates at all you can fly from one type of weather to another without that sudden change, awesome.

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Hej Guys,

 

Sticking to the subject matter  :P  I think a lot of the time people on FSX under estimate the power of weather and I think a lot of people are caught out after they upgrade to ASX (or other similar weather programmes). I have been using Hifi's various software add-on's for many years now and I have unfortunately been court out a number of times but only one resulted in a major incident.

 

In 2006 (I think) I was landing PMDG's wonderful Boeing 747-400 in KJFK after crossing the Atlantic from EGLL. I was on line with Vatsim and the HiFi's weather programme of the day was creating the 'real world' weather for me. After a rather uneventful flight I descended into some "lively" weather in the New York / Hampton's area.

 

Due to some changeable winds I was assigned by Vatsim ATC runway 13L and was also assigned a "possible windshear" caution. After a rather bumpy approach I lowered the gear and extended the flaps and at only 400ft boom it hit. Lots of lightning, winds all over the place and my Queen (Boeing 744) was barely able to keep herself airborne. I called for a "go around" and powered up to TOGA, which ended up not being enough so then selected max continual power (yep I was in serious trouble). For over 15 seconds my aircraft descended while only quite slowly when you factor in how much thrust those RR engines were producing the downdraft must have been massive.

 

I managed to remain airborne (in real life I would have hit higher obstacles such as tress, water towers, maybe even houses and trucks toward the end) so while in FS2004 I managed to live enough day - I count it as a crash as in real life no one would have been walking away from that mess.

 

What did surprise me is while I announced that I had a confirmed windshear event out of the four aircraft behind me only one called a go around and hold, while the other three aircraft continued with their approach and two out of the three crashed short of the runway.

 

Maybe we take too many risks on FS, I guess knowing we can always walk away from the flight means don't mind crashing? I am personally always gutted when I crash in FS!

 

Having said about being caught out on FS, two weeks ago while at work (I am a cabin service manager (senior flight attendant) for British Airways on long haul services) on a flight from KJFK to EGLL. Toward the end of our flight our flight deck crew warned me that we had some very lively weather over the South of England and they suggested we locked everything away well before we entered English airspace. Cutting a long and bumpy story short I have been flying for many years and I was shocked by how aggressive the weather was on our approach into Heathrow and it is the first time ever I had to tell my fellow cabin crew to "return to stations" due to severe turbulence and then had them seated from 8,000ft  :o

 

Our pilots did an amazing job guiding in the Boeing 772 and while finals was bumpy, rocky and lots of flashes from the outside the actual touchdown was very smooth indeed, they did use plenty of reverse thrust - maybe they were trying to dry the runway off  :rolleyes:

 

I agree with what Max Cotton said, be safe even in the virtual skies... I do think PMDG's working weather radar will help with those safer virtual skies, if you have not used it yet get it working, its well worth the investment!

 

Fly Safe

 

Kimberly xox

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Today I flew a ferry flight from Budapest to Azores with 737NGX, once again ASN reminded me from how superior it is to all the other weather engines out there. 

 

All that heavy turbulence when climbing through thunderstorm really required some control inputs to keep wings level... And then when I finally reached edge of the storm area seeing that huge wall of clouds behind me & very clears skies ahead was really nice. 

 

I think ASN is the first weather program that actually makes weather relevant. Apart from low visibility & extreme winds weather was never any concern with all other weather engines I tried before ASN. Now there's actually a reason to watch what kind of weather you are flying into, hopefully 737NGX will eventually get a radar too. 

 

Regards,

 

Joona L

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I have a neat little ASN story....

I was flying my QualityWings 757-200 in Delta Colors, flew out of KATL in partly cloudy weather, altimeter was 3001 in HG, it was quite nice, and a rather uneventful takeoff and climb to FL300, and at FL300 you are mostly above many major convective weather systems. Well I check my ASN weather plugin (which comes FREE with ASN, it installs to what ever aircraft you want as a 2D popup) and sure enough I have some really nasty weather in front of me. The weather pattern was a small squall line with some high altitude nimbostratus and I was going through a lighter part of it, so no coruse correction was taken, well suffice to say between my Accu-Feel 2.0 and ASN settings I was getting bounced around a little bit, nothing too concerning but it was cool to get that realistic turbulence feeling from the cockpit. Fast forward to my landing at Tampa International using the BLOND FOUR STAR with transition to ILS 01L Cat II-III approach, I was at the trailing edge of a large convective CB weather system. The decent and progression through the STAR went quite smooth a few bumps here and there, but on finals, oh man, lightning every 5-10 seconds, my AP system was barely keeping on the ILS, but I had 3 mile visibility and I decided to go manual, I had to fight just to keep the 757 straight and manage the decent appropriately, luckily for me I was not in the system just at the tailing edge so very little to no microburst probability. I ended up landing with a 5 degree pitch angle at -187 ft/m and a little left of center line and 1 section past the "touchdown blocks". So far ASN is the ONLY WX system that has ever pushed my piloting skills in a tube liner and especially in smaller GA/Regional aircraft, ASN actually makes me take a real good look at the convective weather systems in my route of flight, and their ATIS at 122.00 is ALWAYS correct.

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