Hi!!!

 

Just saw a pilotseye video, in an A340, the pilots were landing in a CAT III Dual in Shanghai. But the pilot said that they had to do a manual landing in Shanghai RWY 17

 

How is that possible?

CAT 3 = Autoland so the Glideslope is available till the end!

 

Thanks a lot!

An automatic landing system is fail-passive (SINGLE) if, in the event of a failure, there is no significant out-of-trim condition or deviation of flight path or attitude but the landing is not completed automatically. For a fail-passive automatic landing system the pilot assumes control of the aircraft after a failure (JAA).

 

 

An automatic landing system is fail-operational (DUAL) if, in the event of a failure below alert height, the approach, the flare and anding can be completed by the remaining part of the automatic system. In the event of failure, the automatic landing system will operate as a fail-passive system (JAA).

 

Glidelope is only needed for  Cat IIIC but their aren't any -  only Cat IIIA and B.

 

Category IIIA permits a DH below 100 ft and an RVR not below 200 m;

Category IIIB permits a DH below 50 ft and an RVR not less than 50 m;

Category IIIC is a full auto-land with roll out guidance along the runway centreline and no DH or RVR limitations apply. This Category is not currently available routinely primarily because of problems which arise with ground manoeuvring after landing.

Didn't get your point mgh.....

 

No GS for CAT I and CAT II till the RWY, ok!

Do you mean that we can do automatic landings only with ILS CAT III C? But they are videos on youtube with CAT III doing it with a 320/330!

 

Thanks

I am not aware of any Cat IIIC landings any where - can you tell where there are any?

 

Cat IIIC requires no DH or RVR limitations. In those conditions how to you get the aircaft off the runway and to the terminal?

Yes....but I have seen automatic landings. Not CAT IIIC but CAT III A or B. But why does the pilot says that we can't do an automatic landing in Shanghai with an ILS CAT III A340 RWY 17? On the FMA, we could read: CAT 3 DUAL!

 

Thanks

Show us the actual video instead of telling us what is in the video.  :Talking Ear Off:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LIaMALJjOEc

I frankly don't know what point the OP is trying to make - he's far from clear.
 
My comments were about the facts.
 
Also, is a landing automatic if the flight crew has to land the aircraft in the final state. The aviation term is "low visiblility operations". EU OPS states:
 
 

Low visibility operations — General operating rules
(See Appendix 1 to OPS 1.440)

(a) An operator shall not conduct Category II or III operations unless:....

 

EDIT

the clip from You tube states:

 

http://www.balticaa.com Airbus A320 is known as a highly automated aircraft. This time Pranas }Drulis, ATPL integrated student at Baltic Aviation Academy (Lithuania), tried to prove it by showing how autolanding of A320 works inhttp://www.balticaa.com Airbus A320 is known as a highly automated aircraft. This time Pranas Drulis, ATPL integrated student at Baltic Aviation Academy (Lithuania), tried to prove it by showing how autolanding of A320 works in zero vertical visibility and 50 meters of horizontal visibility.

 

"zero vertical visibility and 50 meters of horizontal visibility"

Actually the display shows a decision height of 20m not zero visiblity:
 

CAT 3
SINGLE
DH 20

Find a real example - not one from a student playing with a simulator who doesn't know what he doing, and which is not at Shanghai - and make you understand what you're talking about.
 

I frankly don't know what point the OP is trying to make

Neither do I.

 

 

But why does the pilot says that we can't do an automatic landing in Shanghai with an ILS CAT III A340 RWY 17?

On your video, I don't see any Shanghai, I see landing at Frankfurt, I believe runway 25R, simulator landing, by some rookie student. Your questions make little sense.

The video was pretty bad. I was wondering why he was continuing the autoland below 400 ft with a blinking G/S indication. And despite him saying it is 0 ceiling and 50m visibility, the runway was in sight well before landing. If it were truly 0/50m, the first time you would see the runway is the runway centerline light going underneath the nose wheel as you touchdown.

 

Cat III aside, the aircraft is capable of autoland in Cat I. Cat III conditions are not required for autoland. It's just in Cat I conditions, the tower controller is not protecting the ILS so you do have to be aware of possible disruption in the ILS localizer or Glideslope signal that would cause the aircraft to deviate and be prepared to take over the approach and landing/go around and rollout.

 

A Cat III approach is always an autoland for an Airbus, so I don't know what you mean by a manual landing. What you have to monitor even in an autoland is the rollout. If ROLLOUT is not indicated on the FMA at touchdown, then you have no idea where the aircraft is going and should be prepared to takeover the landing rollout to remain on the runway, if the autopilot is not maintaining runway centerline after landing. That may be difficult if you don't have forward visibility.

 

 

Your questions make little sense.

 

What he does best or most or both. His questions are based on easily researched and commonly known or easily found knowledge that he then dismisses or ignores so he can reword the question and and ask again - fishing for an answer that suits the knowledge he believes he has.

 

I know 2+2=5 because I know 1+1=3, now please explain to me why I'm right!

 

Several of us here at AVSIM have tried helping AF330 and it always turns out the same, . . . . . . . . face palm!!!!!!!

 

Regards,

Okay, I think I understand your question now.

 

I took a look at the ILS 17L approach for ZSPD. There is no Cat III approach for any airport in Shanghai. There is a Cat II approach for ILS 17L.

 

I think your confusion is the CAT 3 DUAL indication on the FMA. The FMA indicates the landing capability of the aircraft in configuration of the aircraft at the moment. It changes all the time.

 

If you are flying a visual approach, the FMA will still say CAT 3 DUAL as soon as you press APPR and couple the second autopilot assuming all other equipment is operational. The CAT 3 DUAL indicated on the FMA has nothing to do with the actual approach being flown. It just lets you know that the aircraft is capable of a CAT 3 Fail Operational Autoland.

 

As to the remarks as to a manual landing, the CAT II ILS Rwy 17L approach plate has a limitation note of "Manual Operation below DA" of 400m RVR, which means to me that a Cat II approach may be flown and if the RVR is 400m or greater, a manual landing may be made. The approach minimums is 350m. So if the visibility is less than 400m but 350m or greater, an autoland is required.

 

Then you have to consider other limitations. At my airline Cat II approaches are always conducted to an autoland (i.e. More restrictive), so even though the approach plate allows a manual landing with a visibility of 400m or greater, if we were to fly the approach it would have to be to an autoland.

 

If a generator were to fail during the approach, the CAT 3 DUAL indication would change to CAT 3 SINGLE indicating the aircraft is no longer capable of a Cat 3 Fail Operational autoland. Now it is limited to a Cat 3 Fail Passive autoland. If autothrust were to fail later on in the approach, the FMA would change to CAT 2. Further indicating to the pilots of a degradation in landing capability of the aircraft.

 

 

Several of us here at AVSIM have tried helping AF330 and it always turns out the same, . . . . . . . . face palm!!!!!!!

 

That's my iimpression too and I now ignore him -  and suggest everyone else does so.

Okay, I think I understand your question now.

 

I took a look at the ILS 17L approach for ZSPD. There is no Cat III approach for any airport in Shanghai. There is a Cat II approach for ILS 17L.

 

I think your confusion is the CAT 3 DUAL indication on the FMA. The FMA indicates the landing capability of the aircraft in configuration of the aircraft at the moment. It changes all the time.

 

If you are flying a visual approach, the FMA will still say CAT 3 DUAL as soon as you press APPR and couple the second autopilot assuming all other equipment is operational. The CAT 3 DUAL indicated on the FMA has nothing to do with the actual approach being flown. It just lets you know that the aircraft is capable of a CAT 3 Fail Operational Autoland.

 

As to the remarks as to a manual landing, the CAT II ILS Rwy 17L approach plate has a limitation note of "Manual Operation below DA" of 400m RVR, which means to me that a Cat II approach may be flown and if the RVR is 400m or greater, a manual landing may be made. The approach minimums is 350m. So if the visibility is less than 400m but 350m or greater, an autoland is required.

 

Then you have to consider other limitations. At my airline Cat II approaches are always conducted to an autoland (i.e. More restrictive), so even though the approach plate allows a manual landing with a visibility of 400m or greater, if we were to fly the approach it would have to be to an autoland.

 

If a generator were to fail during the approach, the CAT 3 DUAL indication would change to CAT 3 SINGLE indicating the aircraft is no longer capable of a Cat 3 Fail Operational autoland. Now it is limited to a Cat 3 Fail Passive autoland. If autothrust were to fail later on in the approach, the FMA would change to CAT 2. Further indicating to the pilots of a degradation in landing capability of the aircraft.

Thanks a lot!!! By the way, I bought a pilotseye SWISS dvd. I can't post it.

 

1) So the pilot has to CONFIRM before each approach their approach and the capability of the aircraft. Right?

 

2) So where can we read the CAT of the ILS we have chosen in the cockpit?

 

Thanks

1) So the pilot has to CONFIRM before each approach their approach and the capability of the aircraft. Right?

Yes, during the approach brief and/or with the approach checks you will look at the ECAM Status page and that will tell you the capability of the aircraft (if it says normal, it means fully capable, CAT3B)

 

2) So where can we read the CAT of the ILS we have chosen in the cockpit?

On the approach chart.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Ian