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Setup tutorial/guide

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I'm gonna give P3D a second spin now that the NGX is available in a P3D version and I was wondering what setup tutorial/guide you would recommend to get the best out of P3D and your hardware?

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Just install and enjoy. The only two tweaks that really work are FIBER_FRAME_TIME_FRACTION=0.01 and OPTIMIZE_PARTS=1. Apart from that the following two links give you some very usefull hints for finding the right settings in P3D:

 

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/462838-a-guide-to-getting-the-most-out-of-the-pmdg-777/

 

http://www.robainscough.com/Prepar3D_Settings_2.html

 

Beware that there is so many false information on tweaks/settings here in the forum. But Rob and David really know what they are talking about and provide very valuable insights.

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1st important tip:

 

Turn off UAC and install in admin mode into a folder outside of the default Program Files folder.

 

Second important tip:

 

Don't just blindly add back all your fsx configuration tweaks into P3D. Start fresh, once the install is done go test it out and note your benchmark performance. Obviously don't installing any mods or addons until you've got it up and running.

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Thanks a lot for your input guys, exactly what I was looking for!

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Install to the default location, and before you install any addons set the proper permissions for the Users group. This way your P3D folder is accessible by the "Users group", not just "You", and avoids a lot of problems, you don't need to Run as Admin. The "need" to turn off UAC is a big mistake, especially when you find you've been attacked by malware. Also, most addons are only tested thoroughly on that default folder, so some installations can give you headaches with addon planes and scenery installing to the wrong places.

 

 

P3DUsersGroup.jpg

 

 

You will also need to apply an Affinity mask which is mandatory for proper performance, and is different depending on whether your CPU has HT on or off.

 

 

 

You can PM me for details.

 

 

 

...If you have an NVidia GPU, you can find out how to set up DX 11 here:

 

more about using CP, and NI, for DX9, DX10, and DX11

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Many thanks Steve!

 

I always install to the default folder although another drive since I keep a separate SSD drive for my flight simulator installation.

 

Good tip about granting write and modify to the Users group making sure you won't have any rights issues.

 

As for UAC I always keep it off and have done so for many years since I find it's causing more hassle than it will give me any real benefit. On the other hand I'm very careful with my PC and use both antivirus and antimalware applications on a regular basis making sure my PC is always 100% clean.

 

Will do some testing with the Affinity Mask to see what will give me the best experience. I've had a mixed experience in the past using that tweak.

 

Looking at HT does P3D make any real use of having that enabled? For FSX I've always kept it disabled to keep my temp down as much as possible.

 

Will have a look at the DX11 link you provided and that will be interesting because I heard rumors you don't need NI anymore to set AA etc in P3D but then again in some other places it looks like people are still using it so will have to read up on this.

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Do NOT install to default location!!!!!!

Could you please back that up with a little bit more info?

 

All this with what folder you install to started since you might run into rights issues if you install to the default Program Files folder since that's a system folder. This is especially true if you have UAC enabled and/or are installing using an account with no admin rights.

 

However if you install to a non-system folder you should be good regardless what the folder is called or the path to it as long as you keep away from any system folder path.

 

This is how I understood it but please correct me if I'm wrong.

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As I have understood, if you are a Win8.1 user the OS sets some restrictions for users in the ProgramFiles(86) library, I´m not a computer guru, I only referr to what I have been reading on the net. 

 

This is what PMDG says in their manuals:

 

---------------------------------------------------

Optimal Installation of P3D:
Please Note: If you already have P3D installed, you will find the recommendations in this section to be useful the next time you purchase a new computer or conduct a new-machine installation!
 Do not install P3D into the default installation folder: When installing P3D, do not install the simulator into the default directory that it offers. Instead, customize the folder to something different. (Example: C:\P3D) This will eliminate problems that many users experience resulting from various Windows protection and permission issues forced upon programs placed in the Program Files and Program Files (x86) folders.
 
 Choose a modern, 64-bit Operating System: We strongly recommend that users run their simulator from a 64-bit operating system. The best operating system currently available (at time of writing) for P3D is Windows 7 64-bit. The advanced memory management capabilities of modern operating systems are far superior when running complex simulations such as the PMDG 777-200LR/F
 
 PMDG has experienced numerous issues with the Windows 8/8.1 platform since its release and we do not offer any official support for these operating systems. We have seen the PMDG 777-200LR/F work just fine in Win8 but we have also seen inexplicable strange problems result on it as well. If you’d like to try it, it is at your own risk and we cannot provide support for it. If you do decide to try it, keep these guidelines in mind:
 Disable User Account Control (UAC). This requires registry editing in Win8 to completely disable. We cannot offer instructions on how to do this. Search online for it.
 Make sure P3D is installed in its own folder such as C:\P3D, not the default location where the OS’s permissions issues with this folder can become a problem.
 Always run P3D with the right click “Run as administrator option as described below:

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Thanks and that confirms what I said, your best option is to avoid installing P3D (or any FS for that matter) into any default system folder such as C:\Program Files or C:\Program Files (x86). Then if you call the folder P3D and if you install it directly under the root folder or somewhere else doesn't really matter.

 

As for OS I'm on 64bit Win7 so guess I should be good.

 

Haven't had time to install P3D yet but hope I'll find the time for it later on today, really looking forward to see how the P3D version of the NGX performs :smile:

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I don't know why everyone keeps hyping FIBER_FRAME_TIME_FRACTION=0.01. If you fly PMDG all day, then fine, but otherwise you will have problems with blurries and popping autogen. Best option so far is OP=1, adjusting internal frame limiter on or off dependent upon your situation, and then leaving your config alone.

 

 

Also. AF is not necessary, sorry, it may seem as such in theory. I am running 2700K w/ HT on, and have found negligible, if any benefit versus leaving default config AF as is. 

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I don't know why everyone keeps hyping FIBER_FRAME_TIME_FRACTION=0.01.

 

+1 I installed V2.5 with hotfixes and have NO mods in the cfg. It runs very nicely as it comes "out of the box" for me.

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Yeah, I will start without any modifications and if I'm not happy I'll try one of the suggested tweaks one by one to spot the difference if any.

 

I know FSX isn't a multi-threaded app why HT won't do you any good. Does anyone know if that has changed in P3D?

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Sorry none of you seem to grasp this but the only issues surrounding the Program Files folder is the Users Group permission, which as can be seen from an FSX-SE installation, they are enabled as I have shown. The reason so many suggest another drive or own made folder was that the permissions were not understood. I'm not saying another drive or folder is wrong, but I'm saying if you understand the problem, the Program Files folder is not wrong.

 

 

Secondly if you had issues with an AM then you used the wrong AM. If you have 4 cores HT=Off you have 4 cores. Leave the AM out, or set an AM of 14=(1110), or derivatives of three, like 11=(1011).

 

 

Third, again there are some strange rumours that NI is not needed for P3D. P3D can benefit from some stuff only enabled with NI. Sorry you got mis-informed.

 

...On the UAC thing, you may not have had any problems so far with it off, but that's like refusing to wear a seatbelt so you can be thrown from the car during an accident. You only ever needed it Off because you didn't have the correct permissions - take note that an own folder is available to "You", but not the "Users Group", and when you log onto Windows, you become a member of that group. That's why you also needed UAC off, and Run as Admin. Sorry but I thought a pro install is what you wanted.

 

This is what PMDG says in their manuals:

Yes, that's as maybe, but back when Win XP was around we had Admin Rights and access to the "Read Only" program Files folders.

 

Unfortunately some addons installed files into that folder, even though they had to be able to Write to some of those files outside of an installation, logged on as a User. There are proper directories for files to be updated, but still the addons placed them in the read only folder because it seemed to work OK (since we were Admins).

 

But now we don't get automatic access to those folders, and so devs like PMDG and others found it necessary to advise against using the Program Files folders, because the permissions were not fully understood. If you ask any of them now you may find another explanation.

 

Addons designed to work with Windows security in mind did not place updateable files in the installation folder but used the read/write folders, to avoid problems with tighter security in the future (now).

 

Sorry about this too, but if you want it straight, look here.

 

 

I hope that clears up the matter

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Just want to make sure I fully understand this, in what way will granting permissions to the Users group do you any good if you both install and run your application from a single user account that is part of the Administrators group only?

 

I did have my AM set correctly but in my case (and this was FSX) I didn't see any real improvement having the AM set in fsx.cfg

 

Thanks for confirming NI still is needed for P3D and I'll read up on all this in more detail when time comes.

 

As for UAC I fully agree it is a good thing for many (or even most) users and of course even more advanced users could also eventually find themselves in a situation where they wish they would have had it enabled but personally I'm happy running with it disabled to get rid of all extra popups etc and I then compensate for this by extra added caution what I do with my PC, how I do it and where.

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Put it this way, I work on the basis of having to provide support, and that costs money and is frustrating for the end user.

 

So if I advised someone to "install their FS outside of the default folder", I can tell you that I will get a call next week from a user that downloaded a plane off the internet and none of the gauges show up in the cockpit. Something like that. I don't need it, they don't need it, you don't need it.

 

Just want to make sure I fully understand this, in what way will granting permissions to the Users group do you any good if you both install and run your application from a single user account that is part of the Administrators group only?

There's no chance I would advise that at all, so it wouldn't come up.

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There's no chance I would advise that at all, so it wouldn't come up.

 

OK, fair enough.

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If you think about it, if you are a member of the admins group, why do you also need UAC off or Run as Admin?

 

Windows security is too advanced to get into here, we'll be all night, and it's hard to grasp as can be seen from the posts so far. All I can say is I've provided the basic structure in my first post for you to have "trouble free flight simming". Unfortunately there's so much conjecture about, you're put off.

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I did have my AM set correctly but in my case (and this was FSX) I didn't see any real improvement having the AM set in fsx.cfg

Well since you only have 4 cores HT=Off there's no room to swing the cat. Messing with any AM is likely to cause more trouble. I did say 4 cores = leave the AM out, or apply three cores and test.

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If you think about it, if you are a member of the admins group, why do you also need UAC off or Run as Admin?

 

Windows security is too advanced to get into here, we'll be all night, and it's hard to grasp as can be seen from the posts so far. All I can say is I've provided the basic structure in my first post for you to have "trouble free flight simming". Unfortunately there's so much conjecture about, you're put off.

 

Because Windows security as you say is very advanced and it's not always being a member of the admin group will be enough depending on what you're doing. One example is if you go inte the Registry and try to remove some system keys. To remove these you must either add yourself to the trustee list for that object or take ownership of the object.

 

Although I do appreciate all input so far my main question was about specific P3D settings and tweaks good to know about to get the best possible result when it comes to performance and IQ rather than a lengthy discussion what name I should give my P3D folder :wink: I do feel fully confident when it comes to both that decision as well as having UAC enabled/disabled and Windows security in general. 

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If we don't have HT enabled, then the main reason to apply an AM is to restrict the threads to 3 or 5 cores. Allowing more than 5 cores on a 6 or 8 core CPU interrupts the main thread with too many synchronisations, but maybe if we had 5+ GHz we can have more.

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SteveW

 

The quote from PMDG is taken from the manual from their latest release of 737NGX (a week ago). So you rellay claim that you know more about this than the PMDG developers that have been testing this for a long time and come to another solution? Ok, I will not argue against you as I´m not a PC-guru, but it seems it´s you against the rest of the sim-world.  :P But based on what I have been reading from leading developers as PMDG/ORBX/FSDreamTeam and others I think IMHO I will sitck to their advice.  ^_^

 

Jack

the Swede in Spain

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One example is if you go inte the Registry and try to remove some system keys. To remove these you must either add yourself to the trustee list for that object or take ownership of the object.

Yes, those parts of the registry are only allowed to write by admins.

 

That is why user programs software compliant with Windows security only make changes to that when they install or remove the app. There are places in the registry for user access rights.

 

In short, if you have an app that needs access to the Admin area of the registry and it's just an FS addon or regular user app, then it was designed improperly.

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Well since you only have 4 cores HT=Off there's no room to swing the cat. Messing with any AM is likely to cause more trouble. I did say 4 cores = leave the AM out, or apply three cores and test.

 

But is P3D a multi-threaded application? Becuase if it's not I don't see why even bother thinking about HT or AM in the first place?

 

Of course you can use AM to force the app to run on a specific set of cores and maybe that in some situation could be a good thing giving you better performance but just as I previously said that's not always the case and you might in fact end up with a decrease in performance and an increase in stutters etc. So as for the AM I think the best thing you can do is give it a try and see what works best in your situation depending on your hardware and flight sim setup in general. As we all know it can often be very hard to understand how two computers appearing to be the very same still can give you a very different result when it comes to both performance and IQ.

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Yes, P3D is a multi-threaded app.

 

So you rellay claim that you know more about this than the PMDG developers

I don't think I said that, and I don't appreciate your inflammation. But none of my apps use admin parts of the registry or expect write access to read only files. I have been writing windows apps since before Win95.

 

Read my post again.

 

"Yes, that's as maybe, but back when Win XP was around we had Admin Rights and access to the "Read Only" program Files folders.

 

Unfortunately some addons installed files into that folder, even though they had to be able to Write to some of those files outside of an installation, logged on as a User. There are proper directories for files to be updated, but still the addons placed them in the read only folder because it seemed to work OK (since we were Admins).

 

But now we don't get automatic access to those folders, and so devs like PMDG and others found it necessary to advise against using the Program Files folders, because the permissions were not fully understood. If you ask any of them now you may find another explanation.

 

Addons designed to work with Windows security in mind did not place updateable files in the installation folder but used the read/write folders, to avoid problems with tighter security in the future (now).

"

 

Not my fault, just saying how it is. Installing read writeable files into the read only system is technically wrong.

 

 

Of course you can use AM to force the app to run on a specific set of cores and maybe that in some situation could be a good thing giving you better performance but just as I previously said that's not always the case and you might in fact end up with a decrease in performance and an increase in stutters etc.

I know I'm flogging a dead horse but I said "If we don't have HT enabled, then the main reason to apply an AM is to restrict the threads..." we don't want too many threads and that's not going to happen on your 4 core.

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