What if a plane crashes into a boat? Where do we move the show to then?

 

Oh common Kevin, we already covered this....In Toronto the Toronto Police Marine unit keeps the area clear of boats and in Chicago the "the CPD Waterpatrol, State Trooper Water Patrol and Coast Guard work together to close off the "airshow box" from all boat traffic." These are just two but San Francisco does the same over their harbour.

 

Have you never been to an airshow before? Try reading what we have said already. 

 

And yes Toronto has had many crashes and those aircraft ended up in the lake, as well as a helicopter and a parachute display that his chute didn't open and he plunged into the lake, all away from people and boats and in the closed off performance area.

 

The area covered by flying is much larger than any area that they could keep clear. They keep clear a small strip at show center similar to a runway that the pilots would reference. To keep a small area safe for low passes but probably more to give the pilots a reference point since you can't reference a point of open water. But they will still have to fly out and over areas for miles around that would have boats underneath them between each pass through show center. So a crash similar to this is still possible even over water. I've been to San Francisco's fleet week airshow as far as over water shows are concerned. They even fly between high rises, underneath bridges, and skim masts there. Always seemed like a more dangerous event than the ones they held at Travis or Moffett.

The area covered by flying is much larger than any area that they could keep clear.

 

yes of course Kevin, the planes have to get from the airport to the performance area and that is over populated areas, but the high risk maneuvers are done in the designated performance area reducing risks....Reason why Toronto and Chicago have this area over the lake as it lowers risks even more.

 

Anyhow I would appreciate you not quoting me ever again because I do have you blocked, on my settings you come up like this:

 

This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by KevinAu. View it anyway?

 

Not right if I have to open your posts to see if you are quoting me so I would rather you not.

You don't understand, there will still be aerobatic maneuvers over boats if they do not maintain a maritime exclusion zone of, usually, 5nm radius around show center. And that is not what they do right now. The videos of planes crashing safely into water with sailboats behind them show those sailboats much closer than 5 miles to the crash. Those water crashes are akin to land crashes of planes onto the airfield that is already cleared. The crash of the hunter occured well off airfield away from show center where non-spectating boats would still have been if they were over water.

Nothing is 100% but risks can be reduced but not completely eliminated. I fully understand that. What you don't understand is with you things go in circles, this is why I blocked you a long time ago, you know that already I had blocked you so don't quote me again

 

 

A display area, from the shore out for about 3/4 mile edged by Southend pier to the east and Leigh/Two Tree Island around 1 1/2 to 2 miles to the west is marked with buoys and kept clear by police launch and coastguard.

 

Thanks but I understand that doesn't include the "airside box" but is effectively only the extended runway?

Matthew Kane, I did not quote you as you requested in the last post and there is no need for you to get bent out of shape again. It takes two to go in a circle and if that is what this seems like to you, maybe you should look at yourself as well. All I am pointing out to you is that the water shows do not eliminate the risk of bystanders being struck because the aerobatic flight area is still much larger than the area currently cleared of boats. Whether the odds of somebody crashing onto a nearby strip of road at exactly the right angle to kill twenty people is greater than crashing into a cluster of nearby boats and killing twenty people I do not know and I doubt you do either. And if what you propose really doesn't reduce the odds of people getting killed, then it is nothing but a knee jerk reaction based on your usual uninformed assumptions that will end up accomplishing nothing positive.

I'm having a 'dense' moment Gerry..............what are you asking?

I'm having a 'dense' moment Gerry..............what are you asking?

 

My original post was to  n4gix who refered to the "airside box" which I understood to mean the whole of the  airspace for the show (see Red Arrows NOTAM). I thought the area of sea adjacent Southend pier was much more restricted.

My original post was to  n4gix who refered to the "airside box" which I understood to mean the whole of the  airspace for the show (see Red Arrows NOTAM). I thought the area of sea adjacent Southend pier was much more restricted.

 

I think the area would change year after year as it would be designated as per the planned event for each year. I don't have the regulations for USA or UK but I do have this for Canada which is lengthy.

 

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/regserv/cars/part6-standards-623d1-2449.htm

 

Basically says  aerobatic manoeuvres by heavier aircraft must be performed between at least 1,000 and 1,500 feet (304 and 457 metres) from any crowds, "built-up areas and occupied buildings." A plane cannot do a roll, or even turn, when flying over a crowd. if anything does go wrong, an aircraft's trajectory will carry any wreckage away from the crowd. 

 

This is for Canada anyways, I also saw an article in Canada saying the loop performed in Shoreham that led to the accident would have been against Canadian Regulations, probably because it was performed over a public road or the trajectory put the aircraft on a public road. 

 

I don't know the UK rules because I have never been there, I am off to the Toronto International Airshow next week so this is why I have had a bit of an interest in this lately. I still love an airshow so I am looking forward to Toronto. 

 

This is the link to that event next week: http://cias.org/

 

Edit: I guess this is the regulations from the FAA (lengthy as well): 

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/23162

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9BiIQqUIPF0

 

Blue Angels at a beachfront show.

 

 

I think the area would change year after year as it would be designated as per the planned event for each year. I don't have the regulations for USA or UK but I do have this for Canada which is lengthy.

 

My point refered to the the extent of the "airside box" on the surface.

 

The  "airside box" for an inland airshow can be no larger than the airfield boundary. Why then should there be an "airside box" on the surface be any larger for a show over water?

I think the airside box thing is getting a bit out of shape as it were.  I don't know what the implied, or otherwise, definition is of an 'airside box' but it certainly has little to do with what I interpret it as i.e. the flying display area.

For both the Chicago and Gary airshows, the CPD Waterpatrol, State Trooper Water Patrol and Coast Guard work together to close off the "airshow box" from all boat traffic.

 

 Why is it thought necessary to close the "airshow box"  off on safety grounds over water but not on the ground?

all too complicated   Gerry, just leave it  to the officials   to sort   it out