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Nick Dobda

Sacramento 16R

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Hopefully the answer is simple. I flew into Sacramento tonight, 16R. KSMF has parallel runways, 16L & R. Upon getting clearance and selecting the ILS for 16R in the FMC, everything came alive as it should and I began the approach. Unfortunately, once the runways began coming into view the ILS was putting me right down the middle of the two runways. Had I continued I would have ended up crashing into the terminal. Yay for practicing strictly non auto landings over the past 4 months.

 

I am using the latest Navigraph database. I've had a few other oddities pop up with respect to the ILS approaches not working.. a few nights ago FSX was telling me to land at some runway (lets say 16) but the airport actually again had parallel runways, I had to choose 16L or R... its as if the data in the FMC was different then what FSX was telling me. Upon choosing 16L in the FMC everything worked out fine.

 

I guess I'm confused, are there known discrepancies between the Navigraph airport database and the FSX default database?

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Hopefully the answer is simple. I flew into Sacramento tonight, 16R. KSMF has parallel runways, 16L & R. Upon getting clearance and selecting the ILS for 16R in the FMC, everything came alive as it should and I began the approach. Unfortunately, once the runways began coming into view the ILS was putting me right down the middle of the two runways. Had I continued I would have ended up crashing into the terminal. Yay for practicing strictly non auto landings over the past 4 months.

 

I am using the latest Navigraph database. I've had a few other oddities pop up with respect to the ILS approaches not working.. a few nights ago FSX was telling me to land at some runway (lets say 16) but the airport actually again had parallel runways, I had to choose 16L or R... its as if the data in the FMC was different then what FSX was telling me. Upon choosing 16L in the FMC everything worked out fine.

 

I guess I'm confused, are there known discrepancies between the Navigraph airport database and the FSX default database?

 

Hi, Nick,

 

There are many examples where the runway and ILS frequencies in FSX are different from the FMC data.  This is because runways and ILS frequencies have changed since FSX was created about a decade ago, and the FMC data from Navigraph is up-to-date.  For example: KORD, KIAD, KSEA (all new runways). 

 

Regarding KSMF, according to Jim Vile, a very well known expert in AFCADs, the ILS in the stock airport is misaligned.  He has a fix.  Search "KSMF" in the Avsim File Library, in the category FSX>AFCADS. 

 

Mike

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I guess I'm confused, are there known discrepancies between the Navigraph airport database and the FSX default database?

 

The default FSX database is dated 2006 and has never been updated since. So if you had an Airac dated on 2006, your datas in the FMC would match what you see in FSX. Otherwise, yes there are many discrepancies.

 

Some airports were modified: new or removed runways or even new or closed airports, change in magnetic declination, change in nav aids...

 

I had the case the other day with OMAA (Abu Dhabi) where there two runways in the real world where there is only one in FSX.

Choose the "wrong" one in the FMC and you are good for a go-around...

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Corrections to the FSX/P3D navaid database can be addressed here:

 

http://www.aero.sors.fr/navaids3.html

 

Unfortunately, there's no easy fix for those problems that arise if the airport configuration has changed. That needs to be done one airport at a time by finding, downloading, and installing updated AFCAD files.

 

I have updated the navaids using that web site and KSMF ILS 16R looks like it's working correctly. I'm pretty sure I'm still using the stock airport in P3D (which should be the same as FSX), and it looks correctly aligned.

 

John

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Corrections to the FSX/P3D navaid database can be addressed here:

 

http://www.aero.sors.fr/navaids3.html

 

Unfortunately, there's no easy fix for those problems that arise if the airport configuration has changed. That needs to be done one airport at a time by finding, downloading, and installing updated AFCAD files.

 

I have updated the navaids using that web site and KSMF ILS 16R looks like it's working correctly. I'm pretty sure I'm still using the stock airport in P3D (which should be the same as FSX), and it looks correctly aligned.

 

John

 

I check for new versions of this and install it all the time. Makes a big difference in P3D. 

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Thanks for the info, all. Looks like for now I'll just have to deal with the occasional oddity showing up. I think it was KSEA where my last oddity showed up (as mentioned in a post above, Seattle has some issues with it), as I am flying down the west coast this week.

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Thanks for the info, all. Looks like for now I'll just have to deal with the occasional oddity showing up. I think it was KSEA where my last oddity showed up (as mentioned in a post above, Seattle has some issues with it), as I am flying down the west coast this week.

KSEA in FSX has only two parallel runways when fact there are three parallel runways. 16C/34C does not exist in FSX but they do exist on your monitor but in 2006 were know as 16R/34L. ORBX PNW scenery has the three runways and Taxi2Gate released KSEA this spring and it has three runways. Addon airports are reasonably up to date.

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In real life, I fly to MMUN every year for vacation, and they had one runway back in 2006. Around 2010, they finished construction on a parallel runway. Now in the sim when I go to fly there, the FMC gives me the option for runway's 12L and 12R, even though when you look at the airport in FSX, there is only runway 12. 

 

I'm guessing most add on scenery's would be up to date, so I'd say that's the best and easiest option.

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In real life, I can tell you that the ILS 16R is perfectly aligned, and I use it almost every week carrying 200+ people! Definitely a default AFCAD issue- Jim Vile's fix in the library will re-align the thing in FSX.  

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I'm guessing most add on scenery's would be up to date, so I'd say that's the best and easiest option.

 

Thanks for the info, all. Looks like for now I'll just have to deal with the occasional oddity showing up. I think it was KSEA where my last oddity showed up (as mentioned in a post above, Seattle has some issues with it), as I am flying down the west coast this week.

 

The easiest fix is to install an-up-to-date AFCAD file.  Ray Smith is a well-known maker of high quality addon AFCADS, and they are all free.  There's a separate AFCAD category in the AVSIM Library under FSX.  Good quality free addon scenery is much less common, and payware can get expensive.

 

Mike

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Well, I turned around and took off from Sacramento tonight, took off on 19R, and the FMC and visual runway lined up just fine. I don't know what happened last night - just one of those things I guess - either I did something wrong or it was just a hiccup in the program.

Does the NGX have an IRS fail built in where it drifts? But then again that doesn't make sense because both the FMC and ILS were together trying to put me down between the 19's. It just doesn't make sense. ​

 

I'll keep this post in mind, though if I come across other hiccups and find that I do need an AFCAD file or something like that. However I am 2 flights away (after 6 months at one flight per month) from completing my round the country hit every major city in the US (in every state) and I only recall Seattle and Oakland having hiccups.

 

Thanks again for all the help.

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Well, I turned around and took off from Sacramento tonight, took off on 19R, and the FMC and visual runway lined up just fine. I don't know what happened last night - just one of those things I guess - either I did something wrong or it was just a hiccup in the program.

 

Does the NGX have an IRS fail built in where it drifts? But then again that doesn't make sense because both the FMC and ILS were together trying to put me down between the 19's. It just doesn't make sense. ​

 

 

 

Nick,

 

In my first post, post #2 in this thread I mentioned that there is a known problem with the ILS in the stock FSX scenery, like what you described.  In fact I did a little research on this, and I found this out while looking for a replacement AFCAD file for you.  I went to a bit of effort to help you out, so I would appreciate it if you would at least read my post carefully, as well as those of others who are trying to help.

 

Mike

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Mike,

 

I appreciate your effort in finding the solution to the problem. As I recalled it, the FMC agreed with the ILS. I thought the ILS and the FMC were separate. I thought that if it were an ILS problem, the FMC would show me left of the runway. |

I went back this morning to take a screen shot of what I was looking at and here it is:

sac.jpg

 

The ILS is bringing me down as I remember, between the runways. To me at the time the FMC looked like it was in agreement with the ILS. On closer inspection, it appears that my current course will put me down left of the runway. Which makes it clear that it is an ILS problem, in that the FMC is correct (up to date) and the ILS is off.

This leads me to believe (after I get my facts straight) that your solution is correct. I dismissed it earlier because to me if the ILS and FMC are in agreement, and the FMC is up to date (and we know the ILS is stock - i.e. old) then the problem is deeper then just the ILS

 

You know what, I think I am in over my head as far as understanding completely what is going on. I have limited experience with the files and programming that goes into the sim. It appears that you are confident that your solution is correct, and I have no reason to disagree with you. When time allows I will follow up.

I am sorry if my lack of understanding got interpreted as disrespect. I do appreciate you helping me in this question.​

 

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Mike,

 

I appreciate your effort in finding the solution to the problem. As I recalled it, the FMC agreed with the ILS. I thought the ILS and the FMC were separate. I thought that if it were an ILS problem, the FMC would show me left of the runway. |

 

I went back this morning to take a screen shot of what I was looking at and here it is:

sac.jpg

 

The ILS is bringing me down as I remember, between the runways. To me at the time the FMC looked like it was in agreement with the ILS. On closer inspection, it appears that my current course will put me down left of the runway. Which makes it clear that it is an ILS problem, in that the FMC is correct (up to date) and the ILS is off.

 

This leads me to believe (after I get my facts straight) that your solution is correct. I dismissed it earlier because to me if the ILS and FMC are in agreement, and the FMC is up to date (and we know the ILS is stock - i.e. old) then the problem is deeper then just the ILS

 

You know what, I think I am in over my head as far as understanding completely what is going on. I have limited experience with the files and programming that goes into the sim. It appears that you are confident that your solution is correct, and I have no reason to disagree with you. When time allows I will follow up.

 

I am sorry if my lack of understanding got interpreted as disrespect. I do appreciate you helping me in this question.​

 

 

 

You're overcomplicating things. The problem is just an error in the default Sacramento airport. As mentioned in previous posts, there is a fix for this in the library. The problem is the simulator has misplaced the ILS Radio. The NG doesn't think anything is wrong because it's going off that radio. Install the fix from the library, or any other KSMF AFCAD file you think looks good, and this problem will go away.

 

Matt Kramer

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Mike,

 

I appreciate your effort in finding the solution to the problem. As I recalled it, the FMC agreed with the ILS. I thought the ILS and the FMC were separate. I thought that if it were an ILS problem, the FMC would show me left of the runway. |

 

I went back this morning to take a screen shot of what I was looking at and here it is:

sac.jpg

 

The ILS is bringing me down as I remember, between the runways. To me at the time the FMC looked like it was in agreement with the ILS. On closer inspection, it appears that my current course will put me down left of the runway. Which makes it clear that it is an ILS problem, in that the FMC is correct (up to date) and the ILS is off.

 

This leads me to believe (after I get my facts straight) that your solution is correct. I dismissed it earlier because to me if the ILS and FMC are in agreement, and the FMC is up to date (and we know the ILS is stock - i.e. old) then the problem is deeper then just the ILS

 

You know what, I think I am in over my head as far as understanding completely what is going on. I have limited experience with the files and programming that goes into the sim. It appears that you are confident that your solution is correct, and I have no reason to disagree with you. When time allows I will follow up.

 

I am sorry if my lack of understanding got interpreted as disrespect. I do appreciate you helping me in this question.​

Hi, Nick,

 

Sorry I got a little hot under the collar.

 

I set up an approach using an NGX to 16R w/ stock airport. The ILS is definitely off to the left from the actual runway

location. I selected an ILS approach in the FMC, same waypoints as you have. In fact, the magenta line connecting them

does go to the runway properly. When I slew over to get the localizer dot centered, JARNU is slightly to the right of the

approach path, as it is in your screen shot (using same Map range, 10NM). This may seem like a small discrepancy, but

actually the localizer path is offset enough from the magenta line to put you on the grass instead of the runway. So I

think the FMC nav data is correct.

 

This sort of issue is unusual for FSX. I can't think of another example like this one. Changes in runway numbering, new runways,

changes in ILS/Loc frequencies are much more common, as FSX was released nearly ten years ago.

 

I installed one of Jim Vile's fixes for KSMF. Perfect ILS approach and autoland.

 

Info on this file:

http://library.avsim.net/zipdiver.php?DLID=102743

 

Download link:

http://library.avsim.net/download.php?DLID=102743

 

There's at least one much more recent scenery that may also include the fix.

 

Mike

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