Chaos in the Cockpit

[JBlack 8]

EDIT: On the second thought, not worth it.  

 

Check mate, I think.

 

.

[TurboTomato 90]

 

 

 

I don't mind people trolling on my thread...but I dont think anyone was, except perhaps for your comment ;-)   People have different opinions, that's all.

 

 

 

'

 

 

The AF447 pilots weren't running about like headless chickens. There are many contributing factors as to why PF was pushing forward on the sidestick and why the captain didn't immediately identify this as a mistake. To think that you could simply walk into the cockpit and point this out is fantasy, bordering on trolling.

[JBlack 8]

 

The input feedback from the real aircraft feels EXTREMELY different from what you get in the sim - games simply cannot recreate it.

 

 

The Airbus 380, so hard to fly...unless of course you're a soccer player.......

 

(Note how the flying instructor tells the players that the side-stick is similar to flying 'a computer game' and that they should use only 'small inputs'  (i.e. do not yank the stick hard back then hold it there until the plane stalls and then crashes (as per AirFrance flight 447) - which any average flight-simmer would know not to do if they took hold of the side stick in a real life emergency).  

 

 

Air France flight 447

FlyingMag.com

 

Quote

 

"...The report, issued by the BEA – France’s aviation accident investigative authority – paints a picture of profound confusion and poor task sharing between the two copilots as events leading to the crash rapidly unfolded".

 

(i.e. like poultry who'd lost their sensory inputs).

 

"...The report maintains that the pilots’ actions indicate they perhaps believed they were in an overspeed situation as opposed to a stall. According to investigators, the training likely undergone by the A330 pilots associated buffet with a potential overspeed situation, despite the fact that on the aircraft buffet is actually only experienced when approaching a stall."

 

http://www.flyingmag.com/technique/accidents/air-france-447-crash-final-report-points-pilot-error-confusion

[TurboTomato 90]

What if you thought you were overspeeding, what would you do then?

 

It may be news to you but I'm pretty sure you can fly an Airbus into a stall with 'small inputs' if alpha protection is not working.

[Murmur 3,944]

In this _specific_ case, the only certain thing is that not even a simmer could have produced a worse outcome than those produced by the three pilots with "thousands and thousands of hours logged", i.e. keeping a functioning aircraft stalled from 35.000 down to the ground and killing everyone on board in less than 4 minutes.

[scottb613 1,188]

Hi Folks,

 

Plane was certainly deep into coffin corner after the initial climb - the difference between a stall or overspeed - could be very very small...

 

While the crew is ultimately to blame - what kind of engineer could EVER think that it would be a good thing to average control inputs between two sticks ?

 

Regards,

Scott

[n4gix 4,947]

Talking of crashes.  How come the Crash Modelling topic got closed down tonight despite only being opened for 3 days, yet the American Truck Simulator topic is still open despite being started nearly three weeks ago! -and despite not even being a flight simulator-related topic! 

The "crash modeling" topic was closed because it was stuck in a Moebius Loop. Since each position has been expounded upon many times, ad infinitum, ad nauseaum, no consensus is likely ever to occur.

 

This is the "Hangar Chat" forum where topics do not have to be aviation related, therefore the ATS thread is perfectly acceptable for the time being.

[TurboTomato 90]

Airbus ones? But then you have the priority button to override anyway.

 

Edit: if there's something that should be looked at coming from this it is the fact that the stall warning stopped sounding once it had deemed that the IAS was invalid (too low? I can't quite remember off of the top of my head). For the PF this meant stick forward/nose down = stall warning, stick back/nose up = no stall warning in an environment that was already lacking in spatial awareness cues.

[Murmur 3,944]

While the crew is ultimately to blame - what kind of engineer could EVER think that it would be a good thing to average control inputs between two sticks ?

 

While I agree with you, it's worth noting that even on other aircrafts (e.g. the B767), the elevators will split their positions (effectively averaging the final input) if there is a strong difference in the forces applied between left and right control columns. See for example the reports on the EgyptAir 990 crash.

[Chris Crawford 49]

Take a simmer with no flight experience, put them in IMC conditions with faulty instruments, with over 200 people in the back of the aircraft, throw them in a stall, or any other emergency procedure, and tell me how well it works out for them. It's SO easy for people to sit around and say how easily it can be corrected. Landing a plane with little flight experience isn't the hardest thing to do, I understand with some simulator experience, it might make it easier. BUT, we're talking inadvertent emergency situations other than just landing an aircraft.

[JBlack 8]

This is the "Hangar Chat" forum where topics do not have to be aviation related, therefore the ATS thread is perfectly acceptable for the time being.

 

Okay, thanks Bill.

Hey I almost forgot that you're a big fan of American Truck Simulator yourself -which does actually feature quite good crash modelling, yet you are adamantly against crash modelling in MSFS if I remember rightly.   But perhaps you've changed your mind now that you've seen how much more realistic it is to have such modelling in the truck-sim, as opposed to trucks and cars etc driving through objects and each other MSFS-style.

 

Thanks again.

 

Landing a plane with little flight experience isn't the hardest thing to do, I understand with some simulator experience, it might make it easier. BUT, we're talking inadvertent emergency situations other than just landing an aircraft.

 

Hi Chris,

 

I wasn't talking about landing an aircraft . The Airbus video I posted was to back up my argument that non-pilots can actually work the side-stick quite easily. 

The bottom line is: Given the Airbus stall scenario - would an experienced simmer opt to pull the stick a few inches back..as the AirFrance co-pilot did, or else a few inches forward.  I personally think that the majority of simmers would, on hearing a stall warning, opt to push the nose down. That's my argument in a nutshell. Nothing more, nothing less.

You can of course argue against my theory, but you cannot disprove it, despite your experience in the industry, which I respect btw.. 

 

Hey, we better watch that this thread doesn't get locked since we haven't reached a consensus yet!  Or have we? :wink:

 

 

https://youtu.be/pJrLKLoJG_o?t=156

[ExNusquam 11]

Edit: if there's something that should be looked at coming from this it is the fact that the stall warning stopped sounding once it had deemed that the IAS was invalid (too low? I can't quite remember off of the top of my head). For the PF this meant stick forward/nose down = stall warning, stick back/nose up = no stall warning in an environment that was already lacking in spatial awareness cues.

This is correct. The Peak AoA on AF447 was 41° (!) and the Air Data computers rejected this value as invalid, because given normal operations, that value would indicate that the sensor had failed or the aircraft was on the ground. The computer wasn't programmed to handle something

 

 

While the crew is ultimately to blame - what kind of engineer could EVER think that it would be a good thing to average control inputs between two sticks ?

Minor technical aside, but the Airbus FCTM uses the phrase "added" not "averaged". This means that if both pilots are acting on the controls in the same direction, input will be significantly larger than either pilot would expect.

[Chris Crawford 49]

 

Okay, thanks Bill.

Hey I almost forgot that you're a big fan of American Truck Simulator yourself -which does actually feature quite good crash modelling, yet you are adamantly against crash modelling in MSFS if I remember rightly.   But perhaps you've changed your mind now that you've seen how much more realistic it is to have such modelling in the truck-sim, as opposed to trucks and cars etc driving through objects and each other MSFS-style.

 

Thanks again.

 

 

Hi Chris,

 

I wasn't talking about landing an aircraft . The Airbus video I posted was to back up my argument that non-pilots can actually work the side-stick quite easily. 

The bottom line is: Given the Airbus stall scenario - would an experienced simmer opt to pull the stick a few inches back..as the AirFrance co-pilot did, or else a few inches forward.  I personally think that the majority of simmers would, on hearing a stall warning, opt to push the nose down. That's my argument in a nutshell. Nothing more, nothing less.

You can of course argue against my theory, but you cannot disprove it, despite your experience in the industry, which I respect btw.. 

 

Hey, we better watch that this thread doesn't get locked since we haven't reached a consensus yet!  Or have we? :wink:

 

 

https://youtu.be/pJrLKLoJG_o?t=156

 

 

 

Alright, we'll just agree to disagree lol

[Morrigan 90]

 

 

Alright, we'll just agree to disagree lol

 

Not worth your time really. 

He is either trolling or completely incapable of a logical thought. 

[JBlack 8]

Not worth your time really. ..

 

And yet you've avidly followed my topic here and posted 5 comments over 4 days!

But the down-turn for you seemed to come when I posted a video of the passenger who made an emergency landing at night after the pilot had fallen ill.  I ended my comment saying 'Check mate'.  Since then you've harped on about how its not worth your time posting here. Yet bizarrely you've obviously still followed this topic and cant keep away.