Chaos in the Cockpit

[Morrigan 90]

But the turning point for you seemed to come when I posted a video about the passenger who  landed a plane at night after the pilot had fallen ill.   I ended my comment saying 'Check mate'.

 

That's exactly what I mean.

You think that posting a video of a guy who worked for Royal Air Force and was often a passenger in that plane, landed a stable cessna while being talked down by an instructor for few hours is somehow proving your point that a simmer would be more likely to perform a corrective action in the situation the crew of AF447 was in. A highly stressful situation when plane is going down in pitch dark, computer telling you that you are overspeeding, alarms going out and so on, yet you say a simmer would act with a "natural" instinct and save the plane.

 

Besides that ridiculous theory that you base on your vast experience of playing a game for few hours a week, the video you linked, despite you thinking it's a checkmate, has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Zero, null, completely irrelevant. So I am not personally attacking you, merely stating that your arguments are just highly illogical, and the mental gymnastics needed to understand your point are most likely not worth the time. 

 

That's all. 

 

EDIT: Alas, there is really no point in trashing this thread with our useless bickering. If you feel the need to have a last word, feel free to PM me. 

[TurboTomato 90]

The bottom line is: Given the Airbus stall scenario - would an experienced simmer opt to pull the stick a few inches back..as the AirFrance co-pilot did, or else a few inches forward.  I personally think that the majority of simmers would, on hearing a stall warning, opt to push the nose down. That's my argument in a nutshell. Nothing more, nothing less.

You can of course argue against my theory, but you cannot disprove it, despite your experience in the industry, which I respect btw.. 

 

The problem was they didn't identify that they were stalled. There were a lot of conflicting and confusing messages being shown to them. Yes of course even your average FSX SE pilot knows that stall warning = nose down (in general). What you're missing totally here, and is almost the entire crux of this crash, is the context in which the stall warning was given (and not given).

 

Your assertion that you cannot disprove your theory is completely disingenuous btw. I could just as well say my cat would push the nose down on hearing the stall warning, and it would have just as much weight.

That's exactly what I mean.

You think that posting a video of a guy who worked for Royal Air Force and was often a passenger in that plane, landed a stable cessna while being talked down by an instructor for few hours is somehow proving your point that a simmer would be more likely to perform a corrective action in the situation the crew of AF447 was in. A highly stressful situation when plane is going down in pitch dark, computer telling you that you are overspeeding, alarms going out and so on, yet you say a simmer would act with a "natural" instinct and save the plane.

 

Besides that ridiculous theory that you base on your vast experience of playing a game for few hours a week, the video you linked, despite you thinking it's a checkmate, has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Zero, null, completely irrelevant. So I am not personally attacking you, merely stating that your arguments are just highly illogical, and the mental gymnastics needed to understand your point are most likely not worth the time. 

 

That's all. 

 

EDIT: Alas, there is really no point in trashing this thread with our useless bickering. If you feel you need a last word, feel free to PM me. 

 

Thanks for more logical, well constructed thoughts Morrigan  :smile:

 

It's a shame some of the real Airbus pilots that used to post on here (such as captain Ró) don't post anymore. It might put some of these discussions to bed a little quicker.

 

btw you can search for the previous thread where we have discussed AF447 in detail.

[JBlack 8]

....He is either trolling or completely incapable of a logical thought.

 

Here come the personnel insults as I expected. But it's allright Lena. I fully understand your frustration. After all you're the expert with the cabin crew hat on, and I'm a mere simmer with 40 years experience in engineering who should be seen but not heard. And yet I've constantly countered your logic on this thread with evidence to the contrary..and you've been left trolling rather bitterly from the sidelines.

 

BTW. Perhaps double-check your comment #19.  Hint: Mental state vs 'Mantal state. 

 

..You think that posting a video of a guy who worked for Royal Air Force and was often a passenger in that plane, landed a stable cessna while being talked down by an instructor for few hours is somehow proving your point ..

 

Lena.  I posted that video in response to you shooting down a similar video from another member.

The video was about John Wildey who successfully landed a plane in total darkness after the pilot took ill and died (hardly a 'stable' plane). 

Contrary to your rather misleading comments the guy had zero flying experience and is a retired IT consultant  Check it.... http://tinyurl.com/h7ss99j

 

That video simply demonstrates that even a total novice -non simmer was able to recover successfully in an emergency situation in darkness.  Likewise the footballers in the other video were all able to work the side-stick successfully, despite your earlier claims that flying the Airbus by stick was nothing like flying in a video game (heck the Airbus instructor actually said on the video that using the stick WAS similar to flying a video game).

 

...somehow proving your point that a simmer would be more likely to perform a corrective action in the situation the crew of AF447 was in. A highly stressful situation when plane is going down in pitch dark, computer telling you that you are overspeeding, alarms going out and so on, yet you say a simmer would act with a "natural" instinct and save the plane.

 

Lena. Lets leave out the amateur dramatics.  If you'd read my last post to Chris you'd see that the nub of my argument is simply this....

 

...Given the Airbus stall scenario..would an experienced simmer opt to pull the stick a few inches back, as the AirFrance co-pilot did, or else a few inches forward.  I personally think that the majority of simmers would, on hearing a stall warning, opt to push the nose down DESPITE other warnings going off, and despite possible conflicting signals and noise etc.. 

In other words, unlike the crew of AF 477, your average simmer would not be conditioned to pull nose up when a stall sounded but rather would tend to instinctively push down, as the Air France captain eventually opted to do, only much too late.  

 

You can argue and scream against my theory if you wish, but you cannot disprove it, despite your vast experience in the industry as a cabin crew member serving tea and drinks.

 

Besides that ridiculous theory that you base on your vast experience of playing a game for few hours a week, the video you linked, despite you thinking it's a checkmate, has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Zero, null, completely irrelevant. So I am not personally attacking you, merely stating that your arguments are just highly illogical, and the mental gymnastics needed to understand your point are most likely not worth the time. 

 

You appear to have gone into rant mode Lena. ..and all over something as trivial as my personnel opinions on an Avsim forum.  You claim you are not attacking me personally, yet earlier you labelled me here on my own thread as -a troll not capable of logical thought.

You've also said numerous times that its not worth your time posting here, yet here you are yet again back for more of the same but getting more emotional by the minute.  I do hope severe turbulent conditions in-flight are handled more calmly.

 

Alas, there is really no point in trashing this thread with our useless bickering.

 

It's not bickering, or useless. Its called debating on a forum -where people have different points of view.  Look on  the bright side:  we've simply been discussing this excellent topic that I posted 4 days ago, which has drawn interesting views and comments from many members of varying backgrounds.

There now. Doesn't that make you feel much better?  ;-)

 

Best to you 

[Murmur 3,944]

Differently from what some people on this thread think, Capt. Sullenberger seems to think the design of airbus sidestick vs mechanical connected yokes might have contributed to the accident:

 

(minute 3:10-4:45):

 

[Orlaam 306]

Hot topic, lol. I don't think it matters whether one is a pilot or not. It's been proven time and time again that situations where spatial orientation is lost (night/IMC) result in catastrophe. How many flights where the pitot tube is covered or INOP have ended is disaster? Several. Pilots panic. They see things and react to inaccurate information. It's easy to say that the pilot should have known things were fine but they've been given bizzare data and react. You see a drop in altitude and assume you should try climbing. Right or wrong it's ridiculous to assume they knew the pitots were frozen or INOP. Garbage in, garbage out.

 

Stressful situations don't translate to the best outcomes but it's easy to Monday morning quarterback the actions. I work in medical as an RN and see a lot of medical professionals panic in codes. Usually it's the other nurses and ancillary staff but they lose all concentration during these things. It usually takes a calmer person to come and take control of the situation. Recently had a patient have a seizure and the nurse caring for him freaked. I informed her to call the medical doctor and get an injectable drug. She just ran around. I finally went and took care of all of it myself. Same kinda thing in the sense that some people respond better to stressful situations than others. Even more seasoned nurses have been poor performers in my presence. Just hope that the pilots in the cockpit are experienced and don't make bad decisions but they're human at the end of the day.

[TurboTomato 90]

Here come the personnel insults as I expected. But it's allright Lena. I fully understand your frustration. After all you're the expert with the cabin crew hat on, and I'm a mere simmer with 40 years experience in engineering who should be seen but not heard. And yet I've constantly countered your logic on this thread with evidence to the contrary..and you've been left trolling rather bitterly from the sidelines.

 

BTW. Perhaps double-check your comment #19.  Hint: Mental state vs 'Mantal state. 

 

Hahaha you're chucking about accusations of 'personnel insults' (sic) yet you post things like: despite your vast experience in the industry as a cabin crew member serving tea and drinks which is purposefully derogatory and insulting.

 

And it was me that accused you of trolling. At the moment you're doing nothing to prove me wrong. You've also changed your original statement. Is there anything else you want to backtrack on?

[JBlack 8]

.

Murmur said: "Capt. Sullenberger seems to think the design of airbus sidestick vs mechanical connected yokes might have contributed to the accident':

 

Excellent video..from the horses mouth.

Thanks for posting.

 

Orlaam said: .... "Just hope that the pilots in the cockpit are experienced and don't make bad decisions...".

 

Good points Chris.  Some folks do seem to easily confuse forward with backward. You certainly wouldn't want them piloting your plane, or even your taxi ride for that matter. ;-)

 

TurboTomato said:   "The AF447 pilots weren't running about like headless chickens. There are many contributing factors as to why PF was pushing forward on the sidestick and why the captain didn't immediately identify this as a mistake. To think that you could simply walk into the cockpit and point this out is fantasy, bordering on trolling".

 

Er, I think he means pulling back on the stick !!

I rest my case!  Chaos in the cockpit indeed.    :rolleyes:   

 

 

 

“If you're not confused, you're not paying attention.”
― Tom Peters, Thriving on Chaos

 

“What is important is to spread confusion, not eliminate it.”
― Salvador Dalí

 

.

[TurboTomato 90]

My mistake. I can go back and edit it if you want?

[ErichB 3,643]

I wasn't talking about landing an aircraft . The Airbus video I posted was to back up my argument that non-pilots can actually work the side-stick quite easily.

The bottom line is: Given the Airbus stall scenario - would an experienced simmer opt to pull the stick a few inches back..as the AirFrance co-pilot did, or else a few inches forward. I personally think that the majority of simmers would, on hearing a stall warning, opt to push the nose down. That's my argument in a nutshell. Nothing more, nothing less.

You can of course argue against my theory, but you cannot disprove it, despite your experience in the industry, which I respect btw..

 

The hypothetical scenario you have painted is a stick figure. Anyone with a little bit of knowledge about flying would push a stick forward on hearing a stall warning. But there are a number of major factors you have not factored in. Disorientation can me a major overriding factor in any abnormal situation where the underlying logic is well understood. Your basic assertions is correct.(simmers would know to push the stick forward with an audible stall warning) - but my question is, 'so what'? That doesn't correlate with what happened here.

 

 

[simbio 56]

What I would really like is to test this kind of accident, but doing so with the consumer simulation that we have today, is not the same; not talking about CAE but P3D or Xplane.

Maybe once Flightsimlab release the airbus with failure we can try it, but again there is no ice simulation on P3D even PMDG still haven't create such implementation.

As usual simulating thing that you can expect is really half of the stress they faced the first time.

[JBlack 8]

As usual simulating thing that you can expect is really half of the stress they faced the first time.

 

Very true.

There was this simulation done....   https://youtu.be/ZFyrTUN5_as?t=88

.

Your basic assertions is correct.(simmers would know to push the stick forward with an audible stall warning)

 

I'm glad we agree Erich.

 

- but my question is, 'so what'? That doesn't correlate with what happened here.

 

Well, there was an audible stall warning sounding 75 times before the crash; and we've both agreed that simmers would know to push the stick forward in a stall situation (or at least many simmers would know): therefore it would be highly unlikely that these simmers would constantly pull the nose up until the plane fell out of the sky, as the AF pilot did.

 

Quote...

 

"Neither weather nor malfunction doomed AF447, nor a complex chain of error, but a simple but persistent mistake on the part of one of the pilots.....

...The Airbus's stall alarm is designed to be impossible to ignore. Yet for the duration of the flight, none of the pilots will mention it, or acknowledge the possibility that the plane has indeed stalled—even though the word "Stall!" will blare through the cockpit 75 times. Throughout, Bonin will keep pulling back on the stick, the exact opposite of what he must do to recover from the stall".

 

http://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/a3115/what-really-happened-aboard-air-france-447-6611877/

[Morrigan 90]

therefore it would be highly unlikely that they'd constantly pull the nose up until the plane fell out the sky,

 

Stall warning, overspeeding warning, engine warnings, low pressure warnings and all that during 54 seconds while plane was rapidly going down.

So I agree. Most simmers wouldn't pull back on the stick. Vast majority of simmers would stand there (or rather fall down due to severe turbulance) too confused, scared and petrified to do anything. I think you called it "amateur dramatics". Shame that with your vast research about this accident, you didn't research human factors and behaviour during emergency situations. 

 

I am sure in your mind you would be the hero though. 

[fnav77 56]

Easy to criticise when sitting comfortably in a chair and having time to think about it....

[avgaskoolaid 292]

 

I absolutely can't believe the argument that you're making. Do you HONESTLY believe that some simmer who likes to fly the Aerosoft Bus with his sidweinder joystick on the weekend would approach the situation more rationally than a professional pilot with hundreds of hours of experience?? Delusional.... BEYOND delusional... Go ahead and make this argument to any professional pilot, and after they start laughing they'll tell you how cute it is that you feel like a superior pilot after a few hundred hours playing an airplane game. You do understand that 'push the nose down in a stall' is something taught within the first 10 hours of any student's flight training, right? 

[JBlack 8]

 Do you HONESTLY believe that some simmer who likes to fly the Aerosoft Bus with his sidweinder joystick on the weekend would approach the situation more rationally than a professional pilot with hundreds of hours of experience?? Delusional.... BEYOND delusional...

 

So are you saying that the three AF pilots approached the situation rationally'?  Or that the pilot who constantly pulled back on the stick until the plane stalled and killed all on board was 'rational?'  The accident report, and other expert analyses certainly suggests otherwise. 

 

.Quote..

 

"..Bonin reacts irrationally. He pulls back on the side stick to put the airplane into a steep climb, despite having recently discussed the fact that the plane could not safely ascend due to the unusually high external temperature..."

 

http://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/a3115/what-really-happened-aboard-air-france-447-6611877/