Chaos in the Cockpit

[vc10man 732]

 

 

Alas, there is really no point in trashing this thread with our useless bickering

Well stated to go with your earlier comment as this incident has been flogged to death when it first happened a good few years ago. Cannot see the pointless regurgitation of it all.

[JBlack 8]

..Go ahead and make this argument to any professional pilot, and after they start laughing they'll tell you how cute it is that you feel like a superior pilot after a few hundred hours playing an airplane game.

 

Sorry but where in this topic did I ever say that myself, or any simmer for that matter, felt like a 'superior pilot'??  Like I said before. All I'm saying is that in my opinion and others' on this thread, your average simmer would likely have pushed forward on that side-stick during the constant stall warnings, not pulled back constantly as the AF pilot did.

 

You do understand that 'push the nose down in a stall' is something taught within the first 10 hours of any student's flight training, right?

 

Correct!. .and you do understand that despite over 70 stall warnings sounding before the crash, the 'rational' AF pilot in question continued nose hard up?

 

Quote...

 

"Neither weather nor malfunction doomed AF447, nor a complex chain of error, but a simple but persistent mistake on the part of one of the pilots.....

...The Airbus's stall alarm is designed to be impossible to ignore. Yet for the duration of the flight, none of the pilots will mention it, or acknowledge the possibility that the plane has indeed stalled—even though the word "Stall!" will blare through the cockpit 75 times. Throughout, Bonin will keep pulling back on the stick, the exact opposite of what he must do to recover from the stall".

 

http://www.popularme...ce-447-6611877/

[Morrigan 90]

 

Oh I'm pretty sure that your average male simmer would do okay

 

Instead I've always talked about flight-simmerS (later updated to male simmers ;-)

 

So you are not only deluded, but also slightly sexist?

 

It just rubs me the wrong way how disrespectful you are both to the crew and deceased passengers by downplaying the situation of that tragic flight, calling crew headless chicknes and having an audacity to suggest any 'male' simmer would save the plane... becuase it was so easy and obvious! You obviously have no idea about what's going on with people in life threatening situations and make very silly assumptions without proper knowledge. Disgusting. 

But judging by quality of posts you make in other threads and age of your account, I just must assume you are a troll. So I guess I got played. Well done. 

[JBlack 8]

So you are not only deluded, but also slightly sexist?

 

Not at all. There's plenty research to show that males tend to act  more effectively under stressful and emotional situations than females.

 

It just rubs me the wrong way how disrespectful you are both to the crew and deceased passengers by downplaying the situation of that tragic flight,

 

I never downplayed it. In fact I called it a sad situation in an earlier post.

But judging by quality of posts you make in other threads and age of your account, I just must assume you are a troll. So I guess I got played. Well done. 

 

This topic has a HOT label in case you missed it...which means that many people have found it of interest and have contributed to the debate.  I've seen only 2 trolls here so far, namely yourself and TT. 

But anyway, didn't you leave this thread days ago never to return? ..or dont you have a plane to catch? ;-)

[avgaskoolaid 292]

 

, your average simmer would likely have pushed forward on that side-stick during the constant stall warnings, not pulled back constantly as the AF pilot did.

 

So would your average pilot, or anyone who has any idea of how an aircraft operates. Yet, for some reason (in this crash and the Colgan Q400 crash in Buffalo), the pilots did the wrong thing, and we will likely never know why. But I still don't see what you're trying to imply here. Are you saying that if, say, a simmer had been in the jumpseat, he would have said 'push forward, dummy!' the copilot would have said 'OH! Sacre bleu! I forgot!', and the day would have been saved? Or that simmers for some reason can better recall a simple maneuver than a trained pilot? Who says that pushing forward would have been the proper thing to do though? I hear that the 'coffin corner' phenomenon played a key part in the accident. Perhaps pushing forward would have caused the aircraft to overspeed, or the copilot thought it would? Perhaps he was fatigued? Perhaps he had a panic attack or a seizure brought on by fear and stress? The point is, from an outside observers perspective, anybody who knows how an aircraft basically works (which includes real A330 pilots) can say 'why didn't he push forward? I would have done that and saved the day!' But the reality is that you have no idea what you would have done if you were in the copilots exact situation. And I know you didn't say that "simmers are superior", but your argument STRONGLY implies that someone who uses flightsim would have handled the situation better, and if you really think that you truly have no idea how flight training works at all. 

[vc10man 732]

So you are not only deluded, but also slightly sexist?

 

It just rubs me the wrong way how disrespectful you are both to the crew and deceased passengers by downplaying the situation of that tragic flight, calling crew headless chicknes and having an audacity to suggest any 'male' simmer would save the plane... becuase it was so easy and obvious! You obviously have no idea about what's going on with people in life threatening situations and make very silly assumptions without proper knowledge. Disgusting. 

But judging by quality of posts you make in other threads and age of your account, I just must assume you are a troll. So I guess I got played. Well done. 

++++1 :clapping: :clapping:

[TurboTomato 90]

 

So you are not only deluded, but also slightly sexist?

 

Not at all. There's plenty research to show that males tend to act  more effectively under stressful and emotional situations than females.

 

It just rubs me the wrong way how disrespectful you are both to the crew and deceased passengers by downplaying the situation of that tragic flight,

 

I never downplayed it. In fact I called it a sad situation in an earlier post.

But judging by quality of posts you make in other threads and age of your account, I just must assume you are a troll. So I guess I got played. Well done. 

 

This topic has a HOT label in case you missed it...which means that many people have found it of interest and have contributed to the debate.  I've seen only 2 trolls here so far, namely yourself and TT. 

But anyway, didn't you leave this thread days ago never to return? ..or dont you have a plane to catch? ;-)

 

Contributing or coming along to have a look at the car crash that this thread is turning into?

 

No trolling here, I've been on this forum for a good few years and have had a number of very informative and enlightening discussions about AF447. This not being one of them.

 

So what do you personally believe? Do you believe that they thought they were in a stall or not? That's the first question that needs to be addressed.

[FormerSF3 15]

You've never flown a real airplane, have you?

 

The best stick and rudder IFR guy I've ever flown with never played FS. One of the worst I've flown with played a ton. I don't really think you can draw a connection there. 

I've had the opposite.  I taught a person to be a private pilot.  I had him do some instrument work and he was excellent on the first attempt.  When I asked him about it, he said he practiced on Microsoft Flight simulator.

 

This accident comes down to if someone could recognize that with no airspeed indication, level pitch and a VSI that is pegged on the bottom --would realize that they are in a stall.

[WR269 367]

Interesting...can I also point out the crash of the MD80 in Venezuela was similar?  and it had MECHANICALLY LINKED Yokes....both pilots could see what the other was doing, yet the nose was pulled UP and into a stall, all the way down.

 

And agree, it comes down to training the crew to recognize the situation they are in, and what the instruments are telling them. 

[KevinAu 441]

Interesting...can I also point out the crash of the MD80 in Venezuela was similar? and it had MECHANICALLY LINKED Yokes....both pilots could see what the other was doing, yet the nose was pulled UP and into a stall, all the way down.

 

And agree, it comes down to training the crew to recognize the situation they are in, and what the instruments are telling them.

 

The root of these constant problems in professional pilots is their training under the false notion that pitch and power determines performance. All these dead pilots kept the stick pulled back trying to pitch up in their conditioning that pitch controls their altitude. If they were taught in primary as the USN teaches, and as I taught my students, that the only thing that pitch always controls is airspeed and the only thing that power always controls is altitude, their reflexive actions in those situations will have likely been more proper, without ever having to 'recognize' the stall and recall and perform some 'maneuver' that feels contrary to their gut reflex, to recover.

[michal 44]

 

 

that the only thing that pitch always controls is airspeed and the only thing that power always controls is altitude,

This is what my flight instructor always taught me.  :wink:

[Peter Webber 339]

I believe this conversation is going around in circles...Whether a "flight simmer" could handle the complexities of landing an aircraft all depends upon particular that individual. It's like a sport, let's say cricket. The best players have been selected, but only the best to our knowledge. In the communities, there could be the most talented sports people with all the skills, but have not had the appropriate resources to become noticed. There are flight simmers who could potentially be the best and most skilled pilots, but never had the resources to advance their love of flight to the next level. And on the opposite side, we have accepted those Pilots who have the necessary resources, but are borderline cases who just make the grade, scraping through, and latent issues only being identified after the accident has occurred.  So yes, a flight simmer of the correct quality could land a heavy, and yes, a flight simmer who does not have the aptitude could not do so. And yes, a qualified pilot who was born with the "silver spoon" and on the borderline of their abilities could mess it completely up...look at San Francisco, etc, etc..

[FormerSF3 15]

I believe this conversation is going around in circles...Whether a "flight simmer" could handle the complexities of landing an aircraft all depends upon particular that individual. It's like a sport, let's say cricket. The best players have been selected, but only the best to our knowledge. In the communities, there could be the most talented sports people with all the skills, but have not had the appropriate resources to become noticed. There are flight simmers who could potentially be the best and most skilled pilots, but never had the resources to advance their love of flight to the next level. And on the opposite side, we have accepted those Pilots who have the necessary resources, but are borderline cases who just make the grade, scraping through, and latent issues only being identified after the accident has occurred.  So yes, a flight simmer of the correct quality could land a heavy, and yes, a flight simmer who does not have the aptitude could not do so. And yes, a qualified pilot who was born with the "silver spoon" and on the borderline of their abilities could mess it completely up...look at San Francisco, etc, etc..

Well said.......

[Jim Young 2,356]

Agree.  Time to close this topic.