That does put a slightly different perspective on things. I think it should also be taken into account that John provides support for the users of UT in his own time and for free; he's not the developer or some kind of F1 employee, just another FS user helping people out.To be honest, I wouldn't have even answered; I'd have deleted the post.http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpg

-If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the oven-You're getting paid, act like it-Suck in the guts guys, come on, we're the GhostbustersBasically, that sums it up.

Paul:My Godfrey! I finally disagree with you on something! :-lolGiven that English is probably collezio's second language, I found nothing in his response that justified Goodwin's smart alec (got by the censors) response.If Goodwin didn't know the answer (since he may not be a true "insider"), why didn't he just say so, or not respond at all (on THAT, you and I agree completely)? Why brow beat collezio? I dislike people who puff themselves up in their authority. Sort of like parking lot attendants who think they are traffic cops. Goodwin's willingness to help with support, even on a voluntary basis, does not give him the right to be a bulley.Strictly a personal observation, of course. Okay, let me cool down now . . .Wilson

>My Godfrey! I finally disagree with you on something! :-lolFinally, I've found a way to stir someone up a bit ;-)http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpg

Whew! This went a bit further than I thought it would, but for good reason nonetheless. It's merely principle here folks, not about who does what for how much money or whatever. It's a simple fact that this person REPRESENTS a company that sells goods to make a profit. If I sent my Auntie J out front o' the store and she sits in front blowing cigarette smoke in a customers face and farts when they ask "what time y'all open?" how long you think before people stop coming to the store? I'm just saying these companies better start taking more time and attention to how they treat their customers. And no, not all of them are the same, but SOME are digging their graves, and quicker than some might think...

> And no, not all of them are the>same, but SOME are digging their graves, and quicker than some>might think...I don't think so...If the product is that "good", then many will purchase it, when it's ready. In the meantime, these types of flightsim products are more like toys or luxuries. They are not essential, and it really doesn't matter what time the store get's it's door open or not. I've been simming since the inception of it all, and rarely loose sleep over an add-on product, as though my life depends on it. I'd even feel sorry for someone who is too mentally dependant on a time frame for a "non-essential" part of living.Personally, I thought the original response was excellent!!! }( L.Adamson

A lot of responses have come down the pipe with references to stores opening, cars being released et cetera, but I would have to disagree and assert that this case is anything of the sort. What I do believe is that we all have good days and bad days. At my job for instance, sometimes I come home and think I may have treated someone a little harshly (even though in general I am quite nice, unless provoked). I think with the case of FS products being released it is more of reports for a job, or as simple as a Subway employee making a sandwich. If public people hounded the sandwich artist with "is it ready, why is it taking so long" or "we can we expect it to be done" or with the case of reports for a job, "can you type faster," or "why are you taking so long on the ITP reports?" We all have had jobs where someone hounded us to finish a project faster and we all have felt resentment toward those who are demanding things faster. In almost all cases, if the first person asks for a release date the response is usually polite. It is when the same person asks again or if someone fails to search to find an answer that has already been addressed is makes people mad and maybe say things they normally would not. Like I said before, just enjoy the scenery and try to be patient and understanding...we have all been there.

I agree with you whole-heartedly, Larry!Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill!Why has the FS community become a group of critics, complainers and moaners? It used to be that a forum was for friendly banter, exchange of ideas etc.... . Pete S.

Pete,That was in the days where there were very few commercial addons - if any (FS98/2000 for those who remember).Since then, we are witnessing a radical change. The good will and filanthropy associated with the freeware addons are gradualy replaced by the commercial market.And in a market like in a market....Sure, there are some great freeware developers still, but unfortunately they stand out as a rare exception.I don't think the FS community is a group of critics and moaners any more than the bunch of people returning a product or getting a refund at the "customer service" section of your local department store.what had change is the setting. we are much less a "community" and much more "customers".//Michael

No, the move of ever more people towards charging for their work is in no small part due to the ever increasing hostility of the general public.I witnessed that hostility develop from about 2001, peaking in 2003-2004 and then declining as the forums (and the FS world as a whole) seemed to die out.It's gotten more active again in the last few months, but no less hostile towards developers in general.More than one freeware author either stopped releasing his work publicly (myself included, even if I only released a very small number of things over the years) or turned commercial because of that hostility towards them and their peers.It's just no longer worth it. Most of us don't expect constant applause and cheers whenever something hits the libraries however bad it is, but as of a few years ago there's almost no gratitude at all (for the 4 things I released over a period of as many years I got a grand total of 2 emails, and one of those was a complaint) out of several thousand downloads total. Others have received death threats and been flooded with personal insults so I guess I've been lucky.Some felt they wanted some other form of compensation rather than a "thank you" once in a while and started charging, the rest stopped.

I think what it boils down to, is people get fed up with others asking the same question others have asked, even sometimes a handful of the same inquiry on the front forum page.Even if you dont see an inquiry of what you want to know, 99 out of 100 forums have a feature called "SEARCH" and it comes in quite handy. After a couple of attempts, of not finding what you are looking for in the "SEARCH" ability of a forum, chances are its safe to make a post about your inquiry. Normally if I have something I need to ask, I will in my post state something to the effect of, "I used the search feature of the forum and did not find what I was looking for, so if this has been addressed my apologies" then ask my question(s) followed up with, "if this has been discussed, can someone point me to the thread please?"and finally a "Thank you" which goes a long way.When you go to a forum and see in 20 or so threads:Is there a release date?Any update on release?I cant wait...any release date yet?Please release this product?etc, it gets a bit annoying and floods a forum with repetitive threads that tend to e easily answered if you have the ability of READING and the forum can be SEARCHed

>Some felt they wanted some other form of compensation rather>than a "thank you" once in a while and started charging, the>rest stopped.As was written in a most recent issue of AOPA's Pilot magazine, desk top flight simulation has "really" become a simulation of real world counterparts, and can be used in many ways, for real world practice. And since this is true, the simulation can only get more complicated, which requires more dedication, more hours, more research; and basically has to become the "day" job for many. Not only that, the design complications have become so great, that much of the programming/design work is broken up to numerous indivuduals with particular talents.Is this good for flight simming? Certainly!!!, as it only get's more realistic. Besides, I'm still waiting for that perfect simulated Garmin 1000 glass panel, that I figure could take months of real hard work; and of course I'd pay for it!Side note: talk about a day job.....It seems that many simmers EXPECT 24/7 customer service hours!L.Adamson

Hmmm, I am not sure that I follow you.I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with your theory, since I am not a programmer who can contribute, but I don't follow your logic.I can certainly understand why a freeware author would quit, given the outright rudeness that you can find around here. I have never understood why anyone felt that s/he had a right to complain about freeware.But, it seems to me that switching to payware would only exacerbate the problem because of the, "I paid for it so I am entitled to perfection." sort of attitude. In fact, paying customers SHOULD have the right to complain about imperfections, even if some do go overboard in their approach.Please explain your thinking a little more.Interesting topic, by the way . . .Wilson

>I think what it boils down to, is people get fed up with>others asking the same question others have asked, even>sometimes a handful of the same inquiry on the front forum>page.Well (from my original quote/example) the vendor and/or representative surely have something to learn about customer service, EVEN THOUGH I do fully agree customers must also learn to use the search feature...why not just post a sticky about a hot topic and simply reply with "here see this thread". No snippy or smart allec comments, just simply point in that direction. OR don't answer at all and put something in the eula of the forum registration asking to SEARCH for answers before asking (perhaps thats, and if their question is not answered or DELETED then that means their question has already been asked.I have coded our own forums on one of my websites and am seriously thinking of coding a feature into it that searches each word in the subject line (after a user posts a new topic/thread) and makes an auto-reply to their topic instantly with suggested threads to read if any are found...>and finally a "Thank you" which goes a long way.Yes and that goes both ways.

Doubtful. A symbionic relationship between the two is more likely.