I just got my very own 737-800...

[ComSimPilot 623]

Something else I experienced today. I used the Cinematography mode with my Xbox controller and stepped outside the NGX! You can really do a walk around standing up and having the whole aircraft in front of you. That's amazing. I imagine how that would feel on the 777 and 747.

Had some second thoughts lately regarding the resolution. So I tried to go back as an experiment. Same flight VR and right after in 2D. During VR I was finding reasons to not like it due to resolution. Then I did the same in 2D. I couldn't stand it, felt like a fake projection (which it is). Also the fact that you can see so clearly far away is not so realistic. In real life atmosphere makes it difficult to see far away, especially when you are high. I appreciated the clear displays though..but just that. Once you go VR its so difficult to go back. Seems like you don't have an option but its not necessarily good, cause 4K textures are something you always miss. But at the same time you can't stand 2D after that feeling of being inside the cockpit. It's like driving your car from your office through a camera inside the car.

[WebMaximus 372]

Funny I was just about to write pretty much the exact same post you did :smile:

 

I also did a 2D flight the other day and came to the very same conclusion - once you experienced what it's like to actually fly the aircraft rather than pretending you're flying the aircraft model by looking at a 2D display there's no going back.

 

I also found it was much harder to both taxi the aircraft as well as land it when looking at a 2D display.

[Bob Scott 7,776]

I'd argue that a large 4K screen, like the 55-incher I use here, mitigates the 2D effect with its wide field of view.  And the panel on a real acft is, after all, actually a flat display...the big screen does a great job of capturing the most critical part of the forward field of view, and with a good view manager like OpusFSI, you can pan the view around at will and proficiency doing that becomes second nature.

So, the decision to go with VR as it exists today gets you that 3D sense of sitting there, but the tremendous cost of doing that is having to look at that immersive 3D world as if vaseline were smeared all over the lenses of your glasses.   Or you can enjoy a less-immersive but crystal-clear flat-panel view of the graphics and scenery environs with the need to pan the view when looking way off to the side.  Both have pros and cons, and which wins will depend on individual taste and the kinds of activity you want to pursue.  I'm sure that makers of add-ons with sloppy texture work are thrilled with the advent of VR, because a low-quality panel looks just as good (bad, actually) on goggles as the most meticulously-crafted add-on aircraft, and an add-on airport built to FS9 standards looks just as good in VR as the the most finely rendered FSX/P3D airports.

 

I never had the problem of finding it difficult to go back, because the resolution issues prevented me from getting there (to the VR world) in the first place.  People considering the outlay of $600 or more to move to VR should understand that there can be some show-stopping drawbacks...enough so that getting it demonstrated somewhere or buying the gear from a retailer that readily accepts returns is a wise precaution.

 

Regards

[ComSimPilot 623]

I agree that a display better reproduces the displays on an aircraft as of course it has higher resolution. Personally I can easily see my PFD and by just leaning a little I can adjust all EFIS and MCP knobs watching live their effect on the displays. That's especially in 3D add so immersive. In 2D I had to move my eyepoint to see both. You can move and lean everywhere to see everything clearly. By the way when you come close, like 20cm distance, you see all the texture details the developer has created. You see dust, scratches everything. Of course if you don't like to lean and want to see everything clearly without moving you can use the zoom function. I know that you'll think that this is not immersive. But, pressing buttons and moving the 2D image to an overhead preset or FMC or any panel you wanna see, is much less immersive as a pilot perspective. As for the smeared graphics, its not that bad. I would say that you see everything in close distance fine. I can see the gate textures that are in a 30m radius very satisfying for the eye. What you see smeared is everything that is far away. You can't make distinguish individual houses or trees from 10,000 ft for example. When I tried to go back to 2D though, I found this super sharpness not realistic either. Remembering my real flying experience as a passenger their is always atmospheric haze that is blurring details. I'm not gonna say of course that its good in VR. Higher resolution is certainly what is missing, cause you see the individual pixels, especially when looking far out.

 

However,  to be fair I have not tried a so big 4K display, so I accept your view as you have used both and I haven't. I can clearly see the points where a 4K screen of this size has potential and I don't see it as black and white. I agree both have their pros and cons and its difficult to announce a clear winner for every taste.
 

I also considered a big display. I suppose you should be sitting around 0.5m from it. I'd have to set up a non-desk space where the screen starts at my knees height to get a more realistic view. Personally I don't have this space and VR gives me the ability to have a 360 3D view from my desk. Taking off my glasses I can use my desk as a regular pc. But I will buy a screen in the future at some point and certainly test it. I wouldn't exchange my Rift though, cause this is something out of the ordinary, another experience, so it feels money spent on a new kind of experience to me. Also, you can use the Rift to other things other than flight sims and I don't mean games. You can literally visit other places and move like you was walking there, like Mars. I will certainly be thrilled when an Oculus space documentary comes out.

[WebMaximus 372]

Tonight I actually ended up joining the same club Bob going back from VR to normal 2D flying. Might sound very strange considering what I wrote less than one day ago and looking at all the positive comments I've had regarding VR in this thread but let me explain why I chose to return the VR headset.

 

Up until now I have mostly played around with the VR headset feeling amazed by the "being there for real" feeling and I also did some online flying to make sure everything would work OK with the extra programs such as the vPilot client for Vatsim etc. All these things turned out to work just fine thanks to the great FlyInside software.

 

So...what was it that made me change my mind today...?

 

For the first time I thought I would try to do a longer flight in VR online on Vatsim, ESSA-LFMN.

 

It started out just as normal and I was equally amazed of the sensation being there in the cockpit and even more so today since it was lots of other online traffic which made the experience even more thrilling. Had to give way for a couple of other aircraft down on the ground and was nr 3 for takeoff. Being there behind the other aircraft appearing in full size just in real life...truly amazing!

 

After takeoff I was under ATC all the way up to my T/C. At that moment I figured I will change the audio input/output to another headset so I can get up for a bit and stretch my legs. After a couple of minutes I crossed the border into Danish airspace and was asked to get in touch with Copenhagen Control. That was when I first realized a problem I had not thought of before. Speaking to ATC of course was not a problem but changing frequency in the NGX with the VR headset laying on my desk wasn't that easy since the view displayed on my 2D monitor was all screwed up due to how the VR headset was lying on my desk in a weird angle.

 

Of course I could quickly put the VR headset on and then change the freq inside the VR environment but it still takes a bit to make sure it sits correctly and so on and when ATC asks you to get in touch with next controller they of course expect you to do that pretty much right away and not after maybe 1 minute which is what it takes to change the input and output audio back to the Rift headset, then put the headset on, change the freq and identify yourself on the new channel.

 

After this I decided to stay in front of my PC although not much happened, just cruising along at my filed cruise level. This to avoid the same rush next time I got some instructions from ATC. What I then noticed was that after sitting there for a while enjoying the scenery passing by below me I started to feel how the low resolution made my eyes a bit tired and I also started to get a bit of a headache.

 

I haven't really experienced that before and I guess main reason is I've only done short hops such as ESSA-ENGM, ESSA-EKCH etc. Also during those short hops the flight is quite intense with lots of stuff going on pretty much from gate to gate where you start planning for your arrival even before you reached your T/C. Under those circumstances you don't really get much time to even think of what you eyes feel like etc. Now however when I just sat there at my cruise level realizing I had some 2.5h to go to my destination where I at the same time in a way was "stuck" in this VR environment to be able to monitor the flight in a good way, to communicate with ATC etc...that was when I realized regardless how cool the sensation of VR is it just won't work in the long run.

 

I guess it all comes down to what kind of flying you're doing. If you like me spend all your time in an aircraft such as the NGX and often doing 2+ hours flights online it will probably become a bit grueling. If you however do most of your flying in GA planes only doing short hops or if you never fly online meaning you can put the VR headset away pretty much anytime you like and return just in time for your T/D...then a VR headset might work out just fine for you.

 

So to sum things up...I still feel the same excitement about VR and what it does for flight simulation. In my case I never experienced anything like it before and certainly nothing that made me feel in the same way I was actually flying an aircraft. However for the reasons mentioned above I came to the conclusion I need to return the VR headset...at least for now.

 

It was with a tear in my eye I returned the headset tonight because in a way it felt like I was returning not only a VR headset but a real 737-800 :wink: but I do think and hope I will be coming back to VR and my almost real and own 737-800 again though further down the road when the technique has been further improved and when you can wear a VR headset for hours and hours without any signs of discomfort thanks to improved design, better resolution etc etc.

[ComSimPilot 623]

Hi Richard,

 

Sad to see you go, taking into account that you inspired me!

 

I am sure there were other reasons than just how to change the frequency when not wearing the glasses for you to return it.. You could use a pop-up window of the com panel in the 2D display for example.
I am not thinking wearing the googles for the whole flight, just as I don't stare at the cockpit view when in cruise in a 2D flight for 4 hours. I usually use my pc to do other things and check the online map to see where I am. Will occasionally wear the googles to check the cockpit and take them out again. I usually do the same on 2D flights.

[WebMaximus 372]

Hi Richard,

 

Sad to see you go, taking into account that you inspired me!

 

I am sure there were other reasons than just how to change the frequency when not wearing the glasses for you to return it.. You could use a pop-up window of the com panel in the 2D display for example.

I am not thinking wearing the googles for the whole flight, just as I don't stare at the cockpit view when in cruise in a 2D flight for 4 hours. I usually use my pc to do other things and check the online map to see where I am. Will occasionally wear the googles to check the cockpit and take them out again. I usually do the same on 2D flights.

 

Well, it's mixed feelings for sure but as I said I'm sure I'll return to VR again further down the road and if the loss will be too big I can always get a new pair :smile:

[glider1 90]

 

 

Well, it's mixed feelings for sure

 

Large commercial jets are not ideal for VR because at the end of the day flying them is about systems and tiny switches.

 

but if you used the built in microphone in the Rift and changed the drivers of the microphone to generic usb and used Multi-Crew-Experience, you could get your copilot to change frequencies for you by voice as well as do the other mundane stuff.

 

The best compromise is to have that flat 2D panel for big commercial jets and when you want to fly in GA, use the VR headset and an A2A commanche and go do all the IFR and VFR that you can do with big commercial jets plus so much more.

 

Either that or fly the old commercial prop planes in VR like the ones A2A sell that didn't have many systems that don't require high res virtual cockpits. Much more challenging than modern jets to fly anyway and having a great variety of situational awareness that VR offers really matters with those older planes.

[WebMaximus 372]

As for switching freq I do have the FS2Crew FO that can set the freq for me so that would be a solution. Or bring up a 2D panel of the center console that would be visible on the 2D screen like Daedalus suggested.

 

Still though I like to be able to see what is going on at the flight deck even when not wearing the VR glasses during the flight and one solution I came to think of would be if FlyInside incorporated a feature where you could pause the head tracking in the same way you can with TrackIR. Then you could simply hit that pause button for head tracking when the view is the way you like it and then put the VR glasses on your desk and when putting the glasses back on you could simply unpause the head tracking again. I will actually suggest this over in FlyInside's forums.

 

As for flying commercial jets using VR glasses with everything that comes with that as for systems and lots of tiny switches that to me wasn't a problem really. In my case what I found most amazing with VR was the feeling of actually being inside the cockpit and flying the aircraft because that is exactly what it felt like.

 

As I said above, I'm sure I'll be back into VR again and who knows...maybe sooner than I think once I realize just how boring it is to fly on a 2D display again. As I also mentioned already I did a flight in 2D before I returned the glasses and it certainly wasn't the same sensation and I also found it quite hard to both taxi and fly the aircraft after getting used to being inside the aircraft.

 

Well...will give it some time and see what I end up with. Good thing is I can always pick up another pair of VR glasses should I want to :smile:

[WebMaximus 372]

Hi Richard,

 

Sad to see you go, taking into account that you inspired me!

 

I am sure there were other reasons than just how to change the frequency when not wearing the glasses for you to return it.. You could use a pop-up window of the com panel in the 2D display for example.

I am not thinking wearing the googles for the whole flight, just as I don't stare at the cockpit view when in cruise in a 2D flight for 4 hours. I usually use my pc to do other things and check the online map to see where I am. Will occasionally wear the googles to check the cockpit and take them out again. I usually do the same on 2D flights.

 

Since we seem to do pretty much the same type of flying how did you solve the problem when you're not able to monitor the flight when you don't wear the VR glasses?

 

I guess one solution would be if you could up with some way to mount the VR glasses in the same position they would be sitting on your head but not sure how easy that would be

 

The best thing I can think of is that pause feature mentioned in one of my last posts but I'm not sure if that is even possible to implement in FlyInisde or if that is rather something between the underlaying Oculus software and the VR glasses.

[be77solo 125]

Thanks for all the great thoughts and insight in this thread.  Seems that the immersion is there, just need the resolution to back it up to help with both the visuals and eye strain.  Sounds like V2 of these headsets might be a serious game changer if the screen resolution is bumped up enough.  I've played around a bit with my Note 5 and VR, and the screen door effect drives me nuts.  I know the consumer Oculus/Vive are better, but it's still there when I demoed them.

 

I do really like you ideas of being able to pause head tracking Richard and still monitor what's going on, as there's no way I'd be able to wear the headset the whole flight.  Shoot, with kids, the wife and pets always needing something and trying to still be available to them, locked away in the headset just won't work long term.

 

Good thread, thanks again all.

[WebMaximus 372]

 

 

I do really like you ideas of being able to pause head tracking Richard and still monitor what's going on, as there's no way I'd be able to wear the headset the whole flight.

 

Yeah, I really hope this could be implemented in FlyInside because that would solve a big issue as I see it. I posted the suggestion over in FlyInside's forums but haven't received any comments yet if it would be possible or not.

 

Just completed the same ESSA-LFMN flight I started yesterday in VR but this time back on my normal 2D display and sure it's nice with the crisp resolution again on my 4K screen but to be 100% honest it just didn't feel any fun anymore flying when you're used to VR.

 

I'm really on the fence right now - there are a number of things as outlined above that make it a bit cumbersome to perform flights in VR but at the same time pretend to fly looking at my 2D screen simply feels pointless now that I'm used to VR...hmm...guess I should never have tried these VR glasses out

[Marinechf 3]

After using oculus with flyinside for months now there is no going back to a screen for me. The immersion is just too amazing of a feeling. I was once in the "need better resolution" crowd and damn near took the rift back. However after a few weeks of flights I have gotten used to the resolution and damn near don't notice it... until I log onto Aerofly 2 and then I'm blown away how amazing that simulator looks with the rift (I'm hoping more great updates with that sim because it has crazy potential). If there is any advise I can give to people on the fence is give it a couple of weeks. You will get used to it and for get about the resolution, well I did anyways, I know everyone is different. The immersive feeling you get is just so amazing. Well whether you are a 2d simmer or a 3d simmer <---- best...jk...kinda.....I hope we can at least all agree we are starting to see some more improvements in the flight simulator world and hope to see it continue.

 

Chris

[theskyisthelimit 48]

After using oculus with flyinside for months now there is no going back to a screen for me. The immersion is just too amazing of a feeling. I was once in the "need better resolution" crowd and damn near took the rift back. However after a few weeks of flights I have gotten used to the resolution and damn near don't notice it... until I log onto Aerofly 2 and then I'm blown away how amazing that simulator looks with the rift (I'm hoping more great updates with that sim because it has crazy potential). If there is any advise I can give to people on the fence is give it a couple of weeks. You will get used to it and for get about the resolution, well I did anyways, I know everyone is different. The immersive feeling you get is just so amazing. Well whether you are a 2d simmer or a 3d simmer <---- best...jk...kinda.....I hope we can at least all agree we are starting to see some more improvements in the flight simulator world and hope to see it continue.

 

Chris

 

I concur on the aerofly too.. and not to further jump away from p3d, but XP11 looks a tad better than p3d with flyinside 1.7.1 (just released).. though, with xp11 and nycx vs p3d.. in p3d i get around 36 fps with a lock on 48 fps and fair weather, vs about 26-28 fps with clear skies in XP11 in flyinside.. though there could be some settings i can change to boost this.  Side bar is i'm having trouble getting cockpit actions to work with the mouse in XP11 on a first test with flyinside.

[WebMaximus 372]

So guess who just got his Oculus Rift VR glasses back...yep...that's me :smile:

 

The store where I got them from is a truly great place and considering the money I've spent there over the years I guess they think I'm not that bad myself :wink:

 

Anyway I told them about my situation and that I think I'll need more time in order to decide for sure if I want to keep the glasses or not so I now have until January 24'th to decide.

 

This is really great since I'll be having a couple of days off during Christmas giving me lots of opportunities to really try the glasses out. I also hope with some luck there will be a couple of improvements made to FlyInside during this time. This might be a bit too optimistic though because I'm sure Dan the developer of FlyInside like to spend some quality time with his family and friends during Christmas just like the rest of us.

 

Would be awesome though to see a way to pause the head-tracking as discussed above if it's even possible to implement.

 

I guess what I'll do this time is to try using the VR glasses a bit more like TrackIR only wearing them during the most interesting phases of each flight.

 

I'll also try to keep as many external windows/programs as possible outside of the VR environment. Even when the import virtual windows feature in FlyInside works really good I did find the environment got a bit "cluttered" with lots of imported windows. I think I'll manage by simply removing the glasses for a couple of seconds to get access to any external programs/windows I need during the flight.

 

Another thing I might experiment some more with is if it's possible to turn up the light a bit because even after moving all the color adjustment sliders in FI to the far right I still always found the scene a bit too dark even at midday. I played around with PTA a bit but I never managed to find suitable settings and I also remember how my FPS took a hit using PTA. What is everyone else's experience in this regard in P3D?

 

Anyway it really feels good to have the VR glasses back because the flight I did earlier today really felt meaningless and boring as said previously being used to VR now so I fully understand what you mean Chris!

 

Another thing that made me reconsider was I read some rumors that it's not very likely we'll see a CV2 version for at least a couple of years. No one knows for sure of course but if that will be the case that's fairly long time to wait and then I think I prefer to have what we have today rather than no VR at all looking at the amazing immersion it provides already today although with its well-known limitations such as low resolution and so on. If I knew we would have VR glasses with 4K and great performance next summer I would of course wait but that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

Oh well...enough writing...better get back installing FlyInside again for spin nr 2 :smile: