> Right on Peter. Come back on February 28th and join me>in saying "I told you so" :-) .>>DougI don't think anyone here is going to bet their life on a certain release date, I know first hand the release dates we were forced to cram testing just to meet them, and then times where we said "we cannot approve a release by this date because..."And regarding external testers, they are nothing but just extra eyes, not part of the main team.

I assume DX 10 will install and run on XP machines, but the new features just won't be available. So if anything came out in February, it should at least support DX9 features, like shaders, etc.This is what I was alluding to in my posts that were bashed on. You want all the gee-whiz effects of FS10...your gonna have to upgrade to Vista so one can get all the effects of DX10.

John,You were an external tester but in no way were part of the actual testing team. Did you have a test plan? checklists? a certain part of the game to focus on? no, you were handed a copy and said have fun and send us your issues. When I worked in the industry, only 2 years but it was the actual gaming industry not a more complicated industry like testing an OS (boy that seems like a blast! lol) we rarely if ever listened to external testers, mainly because the bugs being found are found too late for anything to be done, unless they are minor enough. by the time you see the game, the testers are already at least 2, 3, depending on how close to release, even 10 builds ahead of you.The bottom line is, to question the possiblity of a game being worked on only because "you" as an external tester have not seen any build or heard any news is by far the most ridiculous concept I've ever seen. For half my time working on a popular PC game, it was called "project X" even though once you looked at it you knew what it was

you are restricted from even talking about how important your bugs are? give me a break! Stop trying to make yourself out to be some guru who gets calls from Bill Gates asking about how you like it. You are given a build to give your insights and bugs, but 99.99999% of them will not even be listened to, not because they aren't valid, but because, as not being part of the inhouse team, you are builds behind and too late in the process

"You were an external tester but in no way were part of the actual testing team. Did you have a test plan? checklists? a certain part of the game to focus on? no, you were handed a copy and said have fun and send us your issues."And that is a valid a test as any other in the development cycle and I don't think you disagree. We do so with our users at every major release. If you wish to call it "external" testing that is fine--I have no issue with that. But the label of beta tester as used by Microsoft is by no means a "wrong" one. Every IT shop I have worked in has used different means of documenting the development cycle. I used to say "how can you call it that" (or more often, "whaddya thinkin!"). Now I just keep my mouth shut and do my job and don't fret over labels much :)-John

It is a valid test but in no way are the external testers a requirement, and if they dont hear something that doesn't mean they can accuse a company of not being able to release a product. And the value of external testers is not as great as some people want to make it out to be.

:-)

"And the value of external testers is not as great as some people want to make it out to be."And that's where we'll agree to disagree Alex. I have found, and I would say most in development I've met agree, that their participation is critical to a product's success. OTH I meet many programmers who feel otherwise, but almost always it's a vanity issue "MY code doesn't need external testing".Some products don't lend themeselves to external testing and others--especially in the gaming arena--put the product at risk of piracy given the questionable bona fides of some who may test. But in the end, it's a matter of risk. I think most developers opt for external testing because the benefit, even in the face of piracy, outweighs the risks. Without a large scale external test, I personally don't expect anything other than a cosmetic release in Feb. if there is indeed one. Something on the scale of FS2002 > FS2004 in my opinion simply isn't possible without a greater extent of external testing or what Microsoft calls "the beta". And where there's some external testing, there's always leaks. Going back to my reply way above, even reputable magazines were fooled into believing WMD's were around every corner in Iraq. A gaming magazine can certainly be hoodwinked as well into believing "THE" release is coming. Maybe "A" release, but not the release the forum is waiting for. I'll gladly take my "I told you so's" if it means a product is here in Feb :)-John

It's called 'crunch time' and pretty standard in some game companies due to the fact that there are a zillion people waiting in line for a job in the gaming industry...

>you are restricted from even talking about how important your bugs are? give me a break! Stop trying to make yourself out to be some guru who gets calls from Bill Gates asking about how you like it. You are given a build to give your insights and bugs, but 99.99999% of them will not even be listened to, not because they aren't valid, but because, as not being part of the inhouse team, you are builds behind and too late in the process

well, I said in my first post that this is probably the marketing team doing their usual BS routine without actually going down to see how the development was going. This has happened so many times in my short career.Sometimes, yes, an external beta is necessary, but not for the reasons some people think. Mainly for compatability testing and final touchups not so you can have a few months to look at the games and give your expert opinion.

>There is NO way that the new version of FS10 is about to be>released or any way near being released. And we are to except this from you simply because of what reason?>Firstly there has been no beta and there are many here who are>very experienced beta testers of the last and previous>versions of MSFS. Sorry but you are "guessing" that the same beta testers that you knew on the last version will be the same ones on the newest version. That is strictly speculation unless you can prove otherwise. I don't know and do not claim to know.>Those who talk about some sort of secret in house beta have no>idea of the open source of MSFS and this programmes special>needs to beta outside.Truthfully I have no clue how it works and I seriously doubt those that due would be posting in this thread about it.>The only vague possibility would be an interim release of a>sligtly patched refaced version of what we already have as an>interim release awaiting a major rework of MSFS later.Now you are "guessing" again Peter, this of course simply proves that you do not know anymore than the rest of us and this "Absolutely NO way" is not so absolute.[h4]Randy J. Smith[/h4]AMD 64 4000+|ASUS K8V DELUXE|SAPPHIRE ATI X800XT PE|MUNCHKIN 3200|80 gig SATA|DELL 1905FP 19" LCD|TRACKir PRO|PFC JEPPESEN MOONEY YOKE|CH PRO PEDALS|

I completely agree with John here. How is MS going to test on a wide range of system configurations if they all do it in-house?!? They need to make sure their products run an most machines without a flaw, especially with a product as popular as FS.What some people seem to forget is while leaks often come from the 'outside', very often they come from the inside. There's always someone within who is bound to not be able to keep their mouth shut (as far as I recall Office 2003 was leaked from the inside).Secret internal beta testing? We live in 2005, not 1960. (ie people hack into gaming companies and download games directly from the source - halflife 2). Plus, if it's common tactics to build up hype before a game release to setup large sales, why break the rules? This is the entertainment industry after all and there is a lot of money at stake. Please name one blockbuster movie/game that was released without hype in the last 5-10 years (in fact please name any ever). Worth the risk?I'd say the Feb 2006 release date is very unlikely. (not questioning the rest of the article though).Christian

MS built the OS, I think they have some pretty good experts to work with in regards to compatability testing.

Wrong. FSX is already in beta.Pat