Never liked the STEAM concept

[Paraffin 2,197]

1 hour ago, skelsey said:

Freeware of course is a different matter and as far as we know DTG have no plans to restrict the way in which freeware developers distribute their products. 

One of the DTG reps mentioned Steam Workshop as what they're thinking of for distribution of free user-generated content. Although not right away.

It makes sense, but it's not exactly unrestricted if that's the only way it's allowed. There is at least potential curation of the content by DTG, since it's not in their best interests to have low-grade add-ons connected with their product. There may also be restrictions on trademarks and logos.

The upside for free content on the Steam Workshop is one-stop shopping, and that might be enough to make it work.

 

[tjstreak 53]

Steam is a mass market product.  PMDG products are not mass market products.

The munchkin power gamers one finds on Steam want first person shoot em ups which they can buy cheap.  Highly detailed professional level sims, like those from PMDG do not appeal to these gamers.

That is, the gamers on Steam are not PMDG's target market.  I really don't think Steam will offer PMDG significantly more sales.

[RichieFly 734]

Steam has and does make me nervous.

Why, you may ask? Internet based DRM. Or more precisely, Steam running, internet based DRM. (yes, I know you can pick a game to run off-line, but it's not really a solution.) 

If you don't have internet access, no games/simulators. Any number of causes here---moving, living in a low reliable or intermittent internet area, no money, aliens.

I understand that almost all simulators and add ons require internet access to download and activate. But, once activated and downloaded, you're golden. At least with DCS and P3D (i think.) Some even allow for activation via a phone call. Some (Aerosoft for sure and X-Plane 11) sell boxed versions of products.

I'm not hating on Steam, per say. I have over 400 products in my library. Yeah, I know what you're thinking: I'm weak or crazy (both!). But, I understand that I'm one event away from having access to exactly none of them.

Just remember what one of our (US) esteemed members of congress said recently: "No one needs to use the internet."

This is why I keep a means of enjoying my hobby without internet access. I frequent GOG for games (no DRM) and keep my DCS up to date with all modules activated. I hope P3D and DCS work without an active connection, but have never tried it. Sad!

Just saying: Steam may or may not be a forever kind of thing. Internet access also may or may not be a forever kind of deal either. The internet is wonderful and a bit of a curse at the same time. Hedge your bets.

[spesimen 135]

4 hours ago, Paraffin said:

One of the costs of doing business is tech support. PMDG will be doing a lot of tech support with a Steam user base that isn't as aviation-savvy as their current clientele. Tech support for every Steam user will cost them more, because they're getting 60% less per sale.

maybe. but i'd argue your average steam gamer is probably similarly computer-savvy to the pmdg clientele. half of pmdg's support here seems to be "that is answered in the readme first document" or "no, redownloading and reinstalling it 3 times is not going to fix your problem".. i do think you're right that overall it could increase their requirements for support but if the cost of support is causing you to take a loss when you sell more product, than something is very amiss there.

 

Quote

Steam forums are notoriously fickle and hostile at times. Just take a quick scan through the Flight School forum on Steam. A company with a prestige reputation can take a pretty big PR hit, if Steam users decide they don't like something, think it's too expensive, or a host of other reasons.

yeah. but avsim is notoriously fickle and hostile too. it only took a dozen posts in the DTG announcement thread for someone to proclaim that they were dropping the ball..there's people accusing them of being horrible and greedy etc based entirely on a speculative post from one dev who even explained that all he really knows is what they talked about a year ago. how much of a cut are they really taking? why did orbx, and a2a get on board, or the other devs that already sell product through their channel such as aerosoft and rex... is there something they know that pmdg doesn't know? i think you will find plenty of complaints about how expensive pmdg is here also...i recall quite a bit of hand wringing when they announced separate prices for the p3d stuff..

 

Quote

PMDG would be able to sell product through their own outlet as well as Steam, but if people are buying DTG's flight sim on Steam, why would they go anywhere else to buy DLC for it? A few hardcore flight simmers might do that to support the developer, but that's not how things usually go on Steam. It's just too convenient to purchase and manage all your DLC through Steam

that's true.but as a customer, telling me that it's more convenient to purchase and manage things is something that makes me happy. just juggling 100 serials like on my last reinstall was a huge headache, not to mention tracking down the various patches, updates, different sites, etc..

the core question is, does that ease of purchase and install translate to more sales? enough to counteract the cut they take?? i don't know really...if it does, DTG should be showing those spreadsheets to the 3rd party devs right now along with giving them the SDK.....i think getting high quality 3rd party stuff on board is essential to their long term plans so the fact that they hadn't really been in communication with pmdg certainly does raise eyebrows..  

cheers,-andy crosby

 

[spesimen 135]

3 hours ago, RichieFly said:

Just remember what one of our (US) esteemed members of congress said recently: "No one needs to use the internet."

yeah but that guy (jim sensenbrenner) was also completely wrong.  to be fair, he's never actually had a real job (political lifer), so i can understand that maybe he didn't realize the internet was pretty much essential for most employment searching and applications, and many govt and commercial services these days.

personally i need internet when i fly because i like to download charts and i use real world weather. and i also use it a lot for my job.. no internet = i have bigger problems than not being able to play my games..

if we reach the point where my internet access is seriously compromised for a long time? i'm probably too busy defending my apartment from zombies or digging out from the earthquake to have time for simming :)

if steam somehow loses their billions of dollars and goes under, i'd be very surprised if they didn't enable offline access for everything either, or that some other enterprise like GoG would take over for them to get their own hands on some of those billions... 

i do feel sympathy for the people with slow or nonexistent connections but global satellite may solve that for them in the next decade too. until then that is a problem they are going to face for many other issues besides just playing games too.. and, as you pointed out, steam does work in offline mode so i'm not really sure why that isn't really a solution..haven't tested it either so i don't know what the limits are..

4 hours ago, tjstreak said:

The munchkin power gamers one finds on Steam want first person shoot em ups which they can buy cheap.  Highly detailed professional level sims, like those from PMDG do not appeal to these gamers.

That is, the gamers on Steam are not PMDG's target market.  I really don't think Steam will offer PMDG significantly more sales.

i think only DTG has the numbers that really says one way or another that such an idea is true or not.. sure all the 'munchkins' are on there, but a substantial portion of 'serious' simmers use the fsx steam version also, because it's the most stable and updated version of fsx. same goes for xplane, i'd bet that a substantial part of their install base bought it on there also.. DCS? also got it on steam.. 25k users in the last 2 weeks and that is very detailed pro level stuff too..  even a venerable, detailed sub sim like silent hunter 3 had 5k users on there in the last 2 weeks.. i do however completely agree that pmdg's high price tags would be a turnoff to the casual market, heck, it's a turnoff for me too, but i buy it anyway because it's good stuff :) 

ok i've spent way too much time typing on this thread today. have a good one y'all! 

cheers,-andy crosby

[SierraHotel 982]

Funny, I never saw mention of the fact that Orbx and Aerosoft are already signed up with DTG? Or the fact the FSW launches with FTX Global? Add to that a 64bit engine with rain effects on the screen and a developing weather engine (let's hope HiFi sign up). I can't see Aerosoft changing their marketing? Can you? I've also not seen mention of the incredible amount of new members on Avsim? Due largely to DTG and Steam? So once again another storm in a teacup! 

[Woozie 732]

The reason why DTG wants to have 3rd party developers sell their products through steam store should be pretty obvious once you look at their Train Simulator. This game offers paid download content for a total of about 5'900$ (!!). Most DLC is between 5 and 20 dollar, while the game itself is about 20 bucks...

go figure, for me its clear that DTG is just going for another cashgrab with their new flightsim

[SierraHotel 982]

Is there an echo in here?.....

[SierraHotel 982]

27 minutes ago, Woozie said:

The reason why DTG wants to have 3rd party developers sell their products through steam store should be pretty obvious once you look at their Train Simulator. This game offers paid download content for a total of about 5'900$ (!!). Most DLC is between 5 and 20 dollar, while the game itself is about 20 bucks...

go figure, for me its clear that DTG is just going for another cashgrab with their new flightsim

Yes, I think that's why they call it a business, fact is unless you are into trains you probably don't own any of them, but, for those that are into trains, what a fantastic piece of luck! someone has offered them the opportunity to drive their fav route or train of which they can pick and choose. I dare say that many train simmers only buy what they need? And what about our hobby? Well I've spent about $400 just on PMDG Aircraft! That's without Orbx, HiFi, REX, ENVTEX, ProATC and a mind numbing array of 3rd party airports and guess what? I don't regret a single penny! I'm sorry sir, your argument is so full of holes if it were a ship, it would sink..............By the way did I mention Ship Simulator......................

[Woozie 732]

2 minutes ago, SierraHotel said:

Yes, I think that's why they call it a business, fact is unless you are into trains you probably don't own any of them, but, for those that are into trains, what a fantastic piece of luck! someone has offered them the opportunity to drive their fav route or train of which they can pick and choose. I dare say that many train simmers only buy what they need? And what about our hobby? Well I've spent about $400 just on PMDG Aircraft! That's without Orbx, HiFi, REX, ENVTEX, ProATC and a mind numbing array of 3rd party airports and guess what? I don't regret a single penny! I'm sorry sir, your argument is so full of holes if it were a ship, it would sink..............By the way did I mention Ship Simulator......................

Mike, this wasnt a shot on any other type of simmers. We all love our toys and operate at the same level of nerdness wenn it comes to excitement and enthusiasm. Be it a train or an aircraft....

And i'm not talking about fully featured study-level addons like PMDG where they spent 1000's of manhours for development. I'm talking about simple 3d models and textures...and some map extensions

But yeah, its great that people have the choice and can buy whatever they want. However, that doesnt change the fact that this smells a lot like cash-grab, and i wouldnt be surprised if their new Flightsim will go down the same route

 

Any yes, the echo is because my post apparently crashed AVSIM, it was down for a few minutes. Sorry AVSIM, wont happen again :)

 

 

[jaydor 233]

FSW was given the kiss of death even before it is born, when they tied it to DTG sales only..  No one will support it..

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Woozie said:

I'm talking about simple 3d models and textures...and some map extensions

You mean like the entirety of the ORBX catalog which is literally texture replacements and airport extensions and is priced at a total of approx. 345435345435,24 dollars? [had no time to calculate the correct sum, but it's obviously a lot!]

[SierraHotel 982]

10 minutes ago, Woozie said:

Mike, this wasnt a shot on any other type of simmers. We all love our toys and operate at the same level of nerdness wenn it comes to excitement and enthusiasm. Be it a train or an aircraft....

And i'm not talking about fully featured study-level addons like PMDG where they spent 1000's of manhours for development. I'm talking about simple 3d models and textures...and some map extensions

But yeah, its great that people have the choice and can buy whatever they want. However, that doesnt change the fact that this smells a lot like cash-grab, and i wouldnt be surprised if their new Flightsim will go down the same route

 

Any yes, the echo is because my post apparently crashed AVSIM, it was down for a few minutes. Sorry AVSIM, wont happen again :)

 

 

I do agree with some of your points but I wouldn't be too hasty and write FSW off just yet. After all FSX SE has almost single handedly given flight simming an enormous boost. I am one of those that purchased Flight School. And judging by what we have been told and seen I think we might be plesently surprised, so watch this space for some live streams of FSW when it arrives.

[SierraHotel 982]

7 minutes ago, jaydor said:

FSW was given the kiss of death even before it is born, when they tied it to DTG sales only..  No one will support it..

FSX SE gives lie to this statement!

2 minutes ago, domae001 said:

You mean like the entirety of the ORBX catalog which is literally texture replacements and airport extensions and is priced at a total of approx. 345435345435,24 dollars? [had no time to calculate the correct sum, but it's obviously a lot!]

$99 AUS, took me about 20 seconds to find the price, facts go a long way when trying to make a point.

[Woozie 732]

2 minutes ago, domae001 said:

You mean like the entirety of the ORBX catalog which is literally texture replacements and airport extensions and is priced at a total of approx. 345435345435,24 dollars? [had no time to calculate the correct sum, but it's obviously a lot!]

Not exactly the same as Orbx is a 3rd party developer. 

Anyways, each to their own, but when i see a game/sim with official content additions (from the developer) worth nearly 6000 dollar, i run for the chopper....