Duncan Odgers

Poppet V4 Flight Physics

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Hi Elaine,

 

I hope you are well, just enquiring about the V4 Physics have they changed or been updated in some form compared to V3 or is it all the same?

Has the SDK at least been updated to allow for more Physics in the flight model.

Visually it looks great just hope the flight model has been tweaked at least.

 

Thanks

 

Duncan

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My understanding from the AirDailyX stream last night is that there is no change.

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Elaine any news on this as there have been a few references to changes in physics?

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With the right developer addon, I see no real issues with the current physics and flight model behavior. Its perfectly ok for a fixed base sim. Is it perfect? No of course not.

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The default physics doesn't change. However, from what I have seen, P3D V4 allows the plugins to be used outside the sim now. So I am guessing that removes some restrictions presented in ESP sim. Maybe it's possible to see some addons perform better physics outside the box, but able to interact with the sim.

 

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Hello Duncan,

For me Flight Physics are the same,  I'm not much of a pilot you see :) 

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FYI Poppet... since apparently you're the only expert (after all, he insisted on you responding)... the rest of us are going on holiday! :ha:

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35 minutes ago, WarpD said:

FYI Poppet... since apparently you're the only expert (after all, he insisted on you responding)... the rest of us are going on holiday! :ha:

I wondered if anyone else had noticed, Ed. :biggrin:

 

Vic

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Guys.the.reason I.asked Elaine.is.because she has.access to V4. Do you.have access to the new version?

 

If so also Rob I would be.interested in your views.

 

Thanks

 

Duncan

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19 minutes ago, vgbaron said:

I wondered if anyone else had noticed, Ed. :biggrin:

 

Vic

While she's busy dealing with all the questions... we get lots more flying time! :biggrin:

 

Yes, actually I do, Duncan. 

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4 minutes ago, WarpD said:

While she's busy dealing with all the questions... we get lots more flying time! :biggrin:

 

Yes, actually I do, Duncan. 

 

So a question to you ED, is the restrictions presented in ESP sim removed so any aircraft developer has the freedom to develop proper physics without any compromise?

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That's a loaded question, to be honest.  What can and can not be done is open to interpretation as well as how much that may or may not impact desired capabilities.

There is certainly a great deal more capability in Prepar3D that allows one to override a great deal of the sim's core physics behaviors, but how far you can push it is probably yet to be determined.  Since Majestic has already made a product that uses custom physics in FSX as well as Prepar3D, I am uncertain I know of what limitations you speak of.  Their Dash 8 Q400 uses it's own physics engine independent of the sim.

As for "without any compromise", that's an impossibility.  In software design, there is always compromise of some type.

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Yes, this would be more Ed's area aright

 

I'm currently creating a guide to have this piece of software running in v4 in a clean and safe way  (safe-ish)  :) 

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Thank you, Elaine.  BTW I subscribed to your You Tube Channel (I didn't even know you had one).

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@WarpDThis is great news as I was worried listening to certain quarters that the physics hadn't changed (could not be changed) and therefore XPLANE 11 was going to be a good idea as their in-house physics are more complex than P3D. I will now stick with V4 when released as I believe PMDG, FSLABS and Majestic all simulate flight dynamics outside the sim or at least most of it. With more options that is good news that was the main thrust of it allowing the SDK more flexibility.

 

Blessings 

 

Duncan Odgers

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I hear about how this sim or that sim is always the "best" when it comes to the physics of flight... that's been going on for years and years.

Truth is, it's 100% subjective.  Each sim, and there are more than 2 now, has it's own strengths and weaknesses.  Despite what many attempt to claim, the physics of FSX is far more accurate than many think.  The actual problem lies in that most developers don't know the details of how to make the core sim perform correctly.  It has gotten better through the years, to be honest.  More and more addons are behaving like their real-world counterparts.

I have this thick book, wasn't a cheap one, titled "Aerodynamics, Aeronautics and Flight Mechanics".  It's considered one of the bibles of the physics of flight.  A great deal of what it covers I can locate within the flight dynamics parameters of FSX.  Now, mind you, I've been talking FSX.  Lockheed-Martin has provided greater access and control over the vehicle in Prepar3D than there is in FSX.

I will not discuss X-Plane in any regard as that tends to start fights, and I expect X-Plane diehards to refrain from commenting as well.  This isn't the X-Plane forum.

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28 minutes ago, WarpD said:

I hear about how this sim or that sim is always the "best" when it comes to the physics of flight... that's been going on for years and years.

Truth is, it's 100% subjective.  Each sim, and there are more than 2 now, has it's own strengths and weaknesses.  Despite what many attempt to claim, the physics of FSX is far more accurate than many think.  The actual problem lies in that most developers don't know the details of how to make the core sim perform correctly.  It has gotten better through the years, to be honest.  More and more addons are behaving like their real-world counterparts.

I have this thick book, wasn't a cheap one, titled "Aerodynamics, Aeronautics and Flight Mechanics".  It's considered one of the bibles of the physics of flight.  A great deal of what it covers I can locate within the flight dynamics parameters of FSX.  Now, mind you, I've been talking FSX.  Lockheed-Martin has provided greater access and control over the vehicle in Prepar3D than there is in FSX.

I will not discuss X-Plane in any regard as that tends to start fights, and I expect X-Plane diehards to refrain from commenting as well.  This isn't the X-Plane forum.

+1

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3 hours ago, duncanodgers said:

@WarpDThis is great news as I was worried listening to certain quarters that the physics hadn't changed (could not be changed) and therefore XPLANE 11 was going to be a good idea as their in-house physics are more complex than P3D. I will now stick with V4 when released as I believe PMDG, FSLABS and Majestic all simulate flight dynamics outside the sim or at least most of it. With more options that is good news that was the main thrust of it allowing the SDK more flexibility.

 

Blessings 

 

Duncan Odgers

Again, the x plane "blade" model is better than look up tables myth has been debunked many times on this very forum. The look up table method works very well when used properly by talented developers. 

The same applies to x plane. There are garbage flight models in that sim too. It just depends on the info fed into it. Garbage in, garbage out.......

 

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28 minutes ago, GHarrall said:

Again, the x plane "blade" model is better than look up tables myth has been debunked many times on this very forum. The look up table method works very well when used properly by talented developers. 

The same applies to x plane. There are garbage flight models in that sim too. It just depends on the info fed into it. Garbage in, garbage out.......

 

The $30 million dollar sims made by CAE and other companies that  the airlines and military use, use lookup tables. Seems to work for them. 

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6 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

The $30 million dollar sims made by CAE and other companies that  the airlines and military use, use lookup tables. Seems to work for them. 

But those sims are more procedure trainers than super accurate aerodynamic simulations, at least the civil ones.

At the edge of the envelope many of them are not even very accurate.

Furthermore one usually needs a few minutes on every sim check to get used to the different handling and control forces when you have been flying the real aircraft just a  few days ago.

 

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18 minutes ago, J35OE said:

But those sims are more procedure trainers than super accurate aerodynamic simulations, at least the civil ones.

At the edge of the envelope many of them are not even very accurate.

Furthermore one usually needs a few minutes on every sim check to get used to the different handling and control forces when you have been flying the real aircraft just a  few days ago.

 

 

I spent two days touring CAE factory that makes those sims, and talked to airline pilots that use them for their training, and I also have about 6 hours flying a CAE 767-400 ER Level D sim. They are exactly like the real aircraft, in fact, the airline pilots use them for all their training prior to getting in the real aircraft for the first time with passengers. What is your level of expertise in these sims? 

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25 minutes ago, J35OE said:

But those sims are more procedure trainers than super accurate aerodynamic simulations, at least the civil ones.

At the edge of the envelope many of them are not even very accurate.

Furthermore one usually needs a few minutes on every sim check to get used to the different handling and control forces when you have been flying the real aircraft just a  few days ago.

 

Without knowing what computer you have, I can bet all my future income that you don´t have any computer powerful enough to discover the difference. For your computer they are equal accurate. If you go to NASA and use their combined computer power, you maybe might discover some differences.

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52 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

 

1. I also have about 6 hours flying a CAE 767-400 ER Level D sim. They are exactly like the real aircraft, in fact, the airline pilots use them for all their training prior to getting in the real aircraft for the first time with passengers.

2. What is your level of expertise in these sims? 

1. Maybe the 767-400 Level-D sim is more advanced but I can definitely tell you that the -300 sim handles different than the real 767-300ER and this is applicable to many other 'real' simulators as well.

Of course you are doing the type rating on the Level-D sim, but nevertheless you need additional (very expensive) flight training in the real plane before flying passengers.

In fact, a long time ago a company thought that they could cancel the flight training for the highly experienced pilots.....they cancelled this money saving project very soon....

2. A sufficient level I'd say. 'Flying' Level D sims every few month since 1989.

However, most of these simulators are more difficult to fly (which usually means less stable) then their RW counterparts.

 

 

 

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