Boeing vs Airbus - Launching Aid?

[spearmint_flyer 579]

I found this in Boeing's Twitter account. This paired with the claim they filed with the department of commerce against Bombardier kind of seems to me like they are desperately trying to stall. What are your thoughts on this? 

 

 

 

[Murmur 3,941]

So touching to see a private american company worried about european taxpayers losing their money.

[HighBypass 2,339]

Sooner we Brexit the better.... ;)

[Matthew Kane 1,343]

Boeing also lost an F-18 Super Hornet deal with the Canadian Government over that filing. They should have let Bombardier make those planes in exchange for the Canadians buying more Super Hornets. That would be common sense.

Instead they will spend years in courts that will cost and may not end up with an outcome in their favor. The history of Boeing vs Canadian Government hasn't really worked for them before, remember they bought the Dash-8 Factory to try and get Air Canada to buy more Boeing's and that didn't work either. 

They could have had more F-18's in production but now they won't, now they will just have lawyers in courts. Boeing also doesn't make anything in the same seat configuration as the C-Series anyways, different markets. This is a win for LM as Canada is more likely to buy F35s now as F18 are now off the table

Also of note, The US Government bailed out its auto industry with billions of tax dollars to avoid collapse, I don't see European Auto Makers or Japanese Auto Makers complaining about that. US Government should be able to invest in it's own industries where it sees fit as well. 

US Sanctions probably won't work anyways, The USA is only 4.4 percent of the worlds population, the rest of the world just has to diversify its trade portfolio and take a 5% loss. I live in New Zealand where our number 1 export is food, so our Kiwi's end up in China instead of California. World population is growing and global demands for food is growing, we will always have a customer for food. Sanctions just mean other markets find new customers for their products. 

[Matt Webb 171]

... and on the other side of the fence:

http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/news-events-single/detail/wto-condemns-boeings-non-compliance-and-new-subsidies/

[goates 576]

1 hour ago, ytzpilot said:

They could have had more F-18's in production but now they won't, now they will just have lawyers in courts. Boeing also doesn't make anything in the same seat configuration as the C-Series anyways, different markets. This is a win for LM as Canada is more likely to buy F35s now as F18 are now off the table

The CS300 is a very direct competitor to the A319 and 737-700 in terms of passenger capacity and, by most accounts, better in terms of economics, and any future stretches to the C Series will only deepen the competition. I bet people will prefer the C Series seat layout too as there are fewer middle seats, and the ones that do exist are wider than the other seats on the plane.

Boeing is playing the strategic game and would gladly give up 18 Super Hornets, or ~88 if the RCAF goes all in, if they can kill Bombardier as a competitor to their commercial business. They are very much going after Bombardier to prevent another competitor developing like Airbus did decades ago.

https://airinsight.com/2016/02/23/why-are-airbus-and-boeing-afraid-of-bombardier/

[Matthew Kane 1,343]

1 hour ago, goates said:

The CS300 is a very direct competitor to the A319 and 737-700 in terms of passenger capacity and, by most accounts, better in terms of economics, and any future stretches to the C Series will only deepen the competition. I bet people will prefer the C Series seat layout too as there are fewer middle seats, and the ones that do exist are wider than the other seats on the plane.

The C-Series is a 108 to a 130 single class seat aircraft. The 737-600 was a 130 single class seat configuration but Boeing discontinued this aircraft. The 737-700 to 900s are 140 to 177 seat configurations which is a larger series, and are now near the end of their production cycle. The replacements MAX are a 138 to 180 single seat configuration.

The 737 is a much larger size of aircraft with the smallest model still larger then the largest C-Series. Therefore a different class of aircraft. You could say one comes close but it really is a different class of aircraft. Also Boeing produces 777 and 787 which is even larger making them a big player, Bombardier is a small player and will never enter into the larger market. 

No point in comparing to Airbus as they don't have a trade dispute with Bombardier. 

 

1 hour ago, goates said:

Boeing is playing the strategic game and would gladly give up 18 Super Hornets, or ~88 if the RCAF goes all in, if they can kill Bombardier as a competitor to their commercial business. They are very much going after Bombardier to prevent another competitor developing like Airbus did decades ago.

The Canadian Government has just announced a 70% increase in Defense Spending this past week. Those 18 were were just a short term gap measure leading to a much bigger announcement. How they spend this 70% increase will likely mean the F35's now that Boeing is out of the negotiations. They also announced Drones and Armed Drones as well. 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberal-sajjan-garneau-defence-policy-1.4149473

Boeing as a defense contractor this is not a good situation when one of your long time military customers announced major new spending and they are worried about a small regional jet. Canada is a great NATO and NORAD partner, I would have preferred to see the 18  F18 Super Hornet's lead to a much larger order with the new money recently announced. Those 18 were confirmed before this new spending was announced. 

 

Bombardier will never grow as big as Boeing or Airbus, they have always been and always will be a regional player that make Ski-Do's, Jetskis, Trains and sometimes Planes too. I like their Ski-Dos and Jetskis 

[goates 576]

51 minutes ago, ytzpilot said:

The C-Series is a 108 to a 130 single class seat aircraft. The 737-600 was a 130 single class seat configuration but Boeing discontinued this aircraft. The 737-700 to 900s are 140 to 177 seat configurations which is a larger series, and are now near the end of their production cycle. The replacements MAX are a 138 to 180 single seat configuration.

While the CS100 could be called a regional jet, the CS300 and any potential future stretches are very much aimed at the same market as the 737 and A318/A319. The CS300 can carry up to 160 passengers in single class configuration, like WestJet, Southwest and others use, which it squarely in the same range as the 737-700 and 737 MAX 7. So if Bombardier can keep it together, they could be a competitor to Boeing in the narrow body airliner market. And unlike Boeing they have a more efficient and modern plane to offer. I think from Boeing's point of view, losing a few fighters to protect a much larger market is a fair trade.

Here's a nice chart showing how the C Series fits against the Boeing and Airbus competitors.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:CSeries_comparable_aircraft.png#/media/File:CSeries_comparable_aircraft.png

Airbus may not have a trade dispute with Bombardier but they most certainly do care about how well the C Series does. 

As for Canada buying the Super Hornets, I think the time is well past that making sense. They should been bought 10-15 years ago.  Any recent number I have seen make the SH more expensive while using last generation's technologies. The F-35 has been coming down in price and will be supported far longer than the SH will. If the Liberals do hold a proper review with all possible candidates, including the F-35, I have a feeling they are going to have to swallow their pride and buy the Lightning II.

 

Sure, Bombardier may never compete against the full range of Boeing products, however, they can cause a lot of trouble in the area they do.

[Matthew Kane 1,343]

49 minutes ago, goates said:

Sure, Bombardier may never compete against the full range of Boeing products, however, they can cause a lot of trouble in the area they do.

Then Boeing never should have sold the Dehaviland Dash-8's factory to Bombardier in the first place....With that sale they made a future annoyance at the bottom range of products, of course Bombardier was going to grow their market share in the regional market from that sale. Boeing started this in the first place 

[goates 576]

1 hour ago, ytzpilot said:

Then Boeing never should have sold the Dehaviland Dash-8's factory to Bombardier in the first place....With that sale they made a future annoyance at the bottom range of products, of course Bombardier was going to grow their market share in the regional market from that sale. Boeing started this in the first place 

Well, they do seem intent on fixing that oversight.

[Matthew Kane 1,343]

I am still not buying into Boeing's position on this, yes they may not get Federal Funding like other nations hand out however Boeing receives the largest amount of tax dollars in State Subsidies then any company in the United States to build aircraft in each state that they produce. Washington State does subsidies the 777 and 737, South Carolina does subsidies the 787 and so on.... Boeing also gets a large amount of federal funding through defense contracts so no shortage of government support there either. Every aircraft manufacturer on the planet receives government support in some form and Boeing is no different. This complaint on their part is misguided. 

Bombardier receives federal funding to make them more competitive against Embraer, who also receives the same kind of government funding from Brazil, Boeing really isn't a consideration in this market as they were once a regional aircraft producer and have for the most part abandoned that market. They once owned Dash-8 and sold it, they once made smaller jets like 717 or 727 or 737-600 etc and have discontinued them, their product line moving forward is in the 138 to 414 seats in various products. These aircraft are much larger then anything Bombardier or Embraer produce, or are even planning to produce. All that the Canadian Government is doing is competing directly with Brazil and Boeing is calling foul.  Don't let that corporate propaganda fool you, Boeing are every much supported by governments at both Federal and various State level as any other Aircraft maker is around the world, they are just supported in other ways.