What is happening with payware?

[LAdamson 240]

Since you just said everything I was going to say.........I don't have to say it!!! :D And yes, I do research the product, or am at least well aquainted with the vendors before I buy. I don't agree with anything in the original post, including trial periods before you buy. L.Adamson

[qnh 70]

>Do you really expect to get a full FMC sim for free? Not at all, but I do expect it to work out of the box.>Like Windows, you get basic functionality and some tools etc. But if >you want something better than notepad to write with, you buy an addon.> I bought Office. It cost more than Windows.So did I, and guess what, it worked with 99% functionality right out of the box>Many business ventures start out as hobbies. FS is just>another one of them. Yes it is, many business ventures that started as hobbies also fail due to the inability of the businessman to switch from being a hobbyist to being a professional.--qnh

[Guest dpc]

Based on your responses, I really have to ask where the heck you are getting your Addons?I have products fromPMDGDreamfleetCresendoFSDAerosoftAeroworxEaglesoftFlight Sceneryand the list goes on. I can't say that I have seen what you are speaking with any of my purchases from them. Are there patches? Sure there are. Let me ask you, what version of Windows are you using? What service pack version is it and how many hot fixes have you applied? Your theory is just does not match with the current state of software in general.-dave

[boshar 6]

Or have a realy nice hobby:1. Download the SDK's and search all flightsim forums for inside knowledge and tricks2. Use the free G-MAX that came on your FS2004 CD and invest lots of time in your hobby OR buy FSDS 3.0 ($50) to make development somewhat less time consuming3. Use your FS hardware for development. Use Simmarket to distribute your product4. Use your knowledge of your favourite aircraft (the one that made you want to become a developer in the first place)5. Browse at airliners.net and your local airport6. Find friends with the same interest as you or do it all by yourself7. Use free software (GMAX, GIMP, Notepad) get AVSIM to do your forum for you (even PMDG does it that way)8. Use airliners.net and the snaps you took with your family camera. Visit the local museum and take snapshots of your aircraft9. Inform with Simmarket and Simware about their rates. When not satisfactory consider setting up using PayPal (costs are 1.9% - 2.9% + $0.30 USD, depending on monthly volume) . Post pictures of your project in the sceenshots forums of the big FS sites10. Use your private webspace that came with your ADSL subscription. Volume will be low so you will get away with a small advertising site11. Look realy nice at those people from AVSIM or release part of your product as freeware for promotion and a free forum in the FS world12. Use that silly nickname you got in highschool. Use big letters and call it a logo.13. Call that handy friend to help you with the site prommis him some money if the add-on sells14. There is no 14 :-)15. Make a choice if you want to support your add-on. Chances are that your product is 100% SDK guidelines compatible and not overly complex. Your asking price is low so reasonable people won't expect to much from it. Have the time of your live with people from all over the world discussing your favourite aircraft and plan a beter version of it using their input.Thats $50 and a lot of time invested. If your $ 15 - $ 20 add-on sells good you will have some extra income or beer money. Don't give up your day job but at least someone is paying you for doing your hobby!

[Guest]

Staffan is an Ariane a really excited user from way back :) Correct me if I am wrong here. But isn't he also a PMDG MD-11 beta tester too :-lol

[boshar 6]

As a customer I judge if a product is worth the asking price. That judgement factors in my likes and dislikes. If I don't appreciate a VC, 100% systems moddeling and 1000 different paintjobs and those things happen to be the great sellings point of the product the product will not be worth its asking price to me.This is totaly subjective so I will always be right ;-)Remember the old saying: 'The customer is alway right' :-hah

[LAdamson 240]

>Based on your responses, I really have to ask where the heck>you are getting your Addons?>>I have products from>PMDG>Dreamfleet>Cresendo>FSD>Aerosoft>Aeroworx>Eaglesoft>Flight Scenery>>and the list goes on. I can't say that I have seen what you>are speaking with any of my purchases from them. Are there>patches? Sure there are. Let me ask you, what version of>Windows are you using? What service pack version is it and>how many hot fixes have you applied? Your theory is just does>not match with the current state of software in general.>Add RealAir Simulations to that list. Excellent products with new innovations, and little in the way of required patches, if any. And throw in FS Genesis too!

[Guest dpc]

ABSOLUTELY!

[qnh 70]

>Based on your responses, I really have to ask where the heck>you are getting your Addons?>I won't name names as that would be unfair - have a browse through the commercial support forums here to get idea>What service pack version is it and>how many hot fixes have you applied? Yes and those hot fixes are released reasonably promptly once a problem is detected. --qnh

[Guest christian]

few comments:The try before buy concept is a great one and I fully support it. But there is a good reason it's not used in FS add-ons. Try before buy is relatively easy to implement when you distribute exe files. Addons are usually not exe files, so it's a lot more complex to do - which then raises the question of implementation cost. Are buyers prepared to pay for the extra development cost (even more exepensive addons) or happy to take a punt? Are you happy to pay for the extra cost of try before buy?The statement that people earn big bucks is a myth. Not many people do addons full time (less than a handful I suspect), and the market is very small. The production of a high quality addon costs almost as much as developing an indie video game. Yet profit is a whole lot less due to a very limited market and distribution system. To give you an idea, if I'd calculate an hourly earning from my sales it'll be somewhere at $3 an hour or less. To do this full time, I'd need to earn 10 times what I earn now. The reason most people develop addons is because they have a passion for flight simming, nothing else.Yes, quality differs and there certainly are overpriced addons. The problem again is that this is a very small market and selfregulation doesn't work that well, but it certainly is happening to some degree. If someone thinks this is a great way to make an easy buck, they will realise that it isn't very quickly. Also, selfregulation probably doesn't work well in the entertainment business in general - how many bad movies and computer games make good money, and how many great ones flopped? Like with anything, read reviews before you buy.Cheers,Christian

[Guest Rayed]

I do not use FS9 for too long, like 6 months or so, my first impression was - ouch, people here are majorly overcharging.I've had some discussion with addon developers (just because I was curious, being in game development and sales business for very long), and now I don't think majority of them aren't overcharging, considering the size of the market and.. well, we pay those prices, so they are ok :).The problem lies in different things in my opinion.- FS addon developemnt business is based on outdated model. Very small teams of semi-professionals, who do not do it fulltime, because there isn't enough money on the market to sustain full team of profesionals I'll give you few very rough exmaples. Entry position talented professional 3D modeller (this is what is needed to model aircraft) should expect around $20k - $30k a year + some bonuses. A programmer (again, entry level person will do) is another 40k. You need some kind of FS expert, research etc.. Normal stuff like office, accounting.. It can easily get to 200-300k per year in expenses (this is very rough figure) for a VERY small and basic team. Add to this distribution, support and marketing costs, and I believe it is impossible to do, considering market size.- many FS developers act like amateurs when it comes to marketing, even on the forums. Rude, even not polite responses to questions, showing off, arguing with customers - this is a big mistake.- there are many developers, who don't have enough knowledge and skills to go beyond hobby level, yet they still charge for their products full prices. The quality is very poor.- no demo versions. I have no idea why, good thing is that much more developers decide to release demos recently. For me - no demo - no buy, I have made one exception so far.- Everyone and her mother ;) wants to develop and sell FS addons. That spawns hundreds of one or two man after hours companies, which with few exceptions just can't handle it. People for some reasons don't even think about joining forces.- FS default is super boring game for hardcore simmers. So we buy pretty much everything what we can. Lost of people get bored in few days with even most complex addons, and for a lot of people their real hobby is buying addons not flying the sim.- last but not least - paranoid anti-piracy protections with all problems with reinstalls etc.. Everyone who ever sold any game around the world knows that anti-piracy protection can only stop kids swapping disks between each other - so there is no need to punish and annoy legit users and spend limited time and money on millions of protections which will be cracked by "dedicated" pirates in 1 day after release. Simple serial number or "hidden" registry entry does the trick in most cases.FS addon market is in big part like normal game business 5-6 years ago, or even more dated. Hundreds of very small developers, who can't financially handle the business on adequate level, few big fishes who also act like distributors, few big distrubutor/publisher only companies.IMO there is a need for 3 or max 4 big distributor/publisher on this market, who would also have cash flow good enough to contract small teams and finance their projects, so they can work full time, then release the product with fair price tag using all avaliable distribution channels and secure the support (and beta testing eariler). To make it happen people may need to start join forces.Of course it is easier said than done and I wish us and developers that the market stabilize, grow and give us a lot of great addons and good money for dev teams. I am personally very thankfull for good publishers releasing great products with fair price tags, we all know who they are. The rest, I personally choose to not to purchase their "products".

[John_Cillis 2,406]

I'll be watching the thread close. To all of those replying, if you can reply without referring to someone as a "a really excited user" or "clueless" and so on, I will keep the thread open. Otherwise, it goes on the locking block. Meaningful discussion can come from a thread like this with meaningful comments from both the consumer and the developer. It should not turn into a confrontation, but the minute one drops a veiled insult, that's the risk that hits these types of threads. So everyone, please regroup and offer the "long" post first before simply dismissing someone as a "a really excited user" or clueless.-John

[Guest Water Mango]

Sounds like you have the perfect game plan to start building add-ons yourself. Looking forward to seeing what kind of product you

[Hollywood 1]

talking about pricing Randy - i spent a bunch of money into Wilco's Airport 2002 V1. Nice addon, but the 737 NG was really a selling feature instead of a usable one. If i knew, by having trial, then i'ld never would have purchased the producted an wasted my money, instead i could spend it for my daughther ;) The second waste of money, while talking about Wilco, was my Lovely A320. Nice idea, but unusable without having a 3D helmet or something else. Another waste of money. Why should i ever buy another Wilco product? Never again unless i am able to test it before purchase. Another excellent example for a porked addon was the Aviosgraf A340. It never made it into the air. 40$ were gone ;)I honour every addon that someone brings out and is worth of the price. See Flytampa's Airports. A very good example for a good addon product. There you are getting an addon with superbe quality and affordable price. Addtionally, you can have a trial to test it before any purchase. I as a customer, i am really willing to pay for a product, if it fullfills, what i expect. Like you, no better, probably earlier than you, i purchased the PMDG 737 when it just was released. It was just like 5 minutes after you could start your purchases. The first month, it just looked like another Wilco effect. Product not working, struggling over the activation process, ... Finally, PMDG removed the ugly acivation process from the 737, rememeber. I paid for a 737. I got a 737. I paid for the extension, because i'ld like the product and i would have paid for another addon to the 737. Unfortunately the 737 reached the end and i still have an unfinished 737. Cool, if you like the IRS on your 747, but it's pretty useless on my 737. Let me get to the point. If a price for product is reasonable and fullfills my interessts, then i don't mind to spend money for pieces of addons. You are critisizing Arianes price - your right. I do too. But i don't mind the price, if i am getting a product that fits my needs. And Ariane does. And it does with every piece they put toghether in my 737. They didn't focus on X products. They focused on 1. But this one they do right ;)Finally everyone has to decide for himself on what he is able and willing to invest to sastify his needs.I am satisfied with my Ariane 737, my Leveld 767 and PSS A3xx I don't need more aircrafts. I give nothing on reviews, neither on job nor in private life. And guess what, suppliers at my Job, give trials for 30 to 180 days. And even my television or my laundry machine i can have 30 days trial at home. I only purchase what i have tested myself live and in color.No trial, no purchase. I forgot that for a second, when i purchased from Wilco and Aviosgraf. I learned the lesson. How do you getting a trial, even if no trials are available? There is a saying in Switzerland. "c'est le tons qui fait la musique". You'll probably can manage to get a trial from every supplier. You just need to ask. Even if you don't belive it, i am convinced that one cause for piracy are cheated customers or/and because of unavailability of trials.Another cause i see, could be the fact, that in the gaming area, lot's of people are underaged, don't have enough money to buy all the nice new products, with which they are tempted with. And for a teanager, probably the worst things might be to be "out". Is it just because not having a Levis's 501 or not having a X-Box360. What ever. And i have still a strong but unconfirmed believing that some marketing people at well known companies are calculating their success of a product by releasing it to P2P networks, ahead of release time. The product will spread on every home computer within days. And people will start talking about the product. Maybe even complaining about it. Now those clever guys read complaints, aswell as bugs found, apply quickfixes and two month later release the product. Ain't they clever? yes they are. While public betas are not really good, because the feedback is poor and the people having it are mostly unskilled. P2P copies are being hacked, cracked by excellent, skilled "script kiddies". They go deep into an OS and you as a developer couldn't get better infos on your product bugs and holes than by having those people playing around. Do you think, Mercedes didn't know that press was looking at their elk test with the A class when they turned the car on side. Sorry, if you believed that. It was nothing else than marketing. Excellent marketing, because the new A class ran through almost every newspaper worldwide. Ok, these were my two cents, hehe, might have been 5 centscheersMartinPS: if you find some typo's, feel free to keep them ;)

[Shaka 2]

To start with, I don't apologize for being a payware fan. Quit whining about payware. If you don't like it, then don't buy it. There's plenty of quality freeware in the library.I agree that the price of payware has gone up a lot over the years, but as long as people are willing to pay it, then why not? They aren't running a charity. I also agree that there is a lot of mediocre payware out there, but that is why we have forums, and if for some "sinister" reason the developer won't let you post on their forums, then guess what - there is always somewhere else to go to spread the word.I think that the end-user has to accept some responsibility too. The cheeseburger analogy was terrible - it's not even close to what is happening. The truth is, FS design is terribly compicated, and developers often have to go beyond what is offered in the SDKs. Most of the time, the results are good, but sometimes, the results don't live up to the hype. The end user has to accept that the addons sometimes will have glitches and bugs, and that the developer may not always be aware of them (but should try to fix them). Many users are inexperienced at using addons in FS, (FMCs can be daunting at first), and this adds to the frustration.Even as a freeware developer, I get complaints. About half I attribute to the user making mistakes in the installation, and most of the rest are the user asking me to do the impossible with FS (and of course, some are actually my mistakes). I've received some pretty funny emails from people who want falling leaves from trees, or buildings that "age" with time. These people don't understand the limitations of the FS SDK, as I imagine most payware-bashers don't.Give us a perfect SDK, and we'll give you perfect software.- Martin (not afraid to hide behind an alias either)