What is happening with payware?

[Tabs 2,790]

Anyone complaining in this thread - please read:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_economy

[qnh 70]

**********************Disclaimer**********************Please note that this is not directed at any one payware producer.******************************************************So what is going on with payware products? From what started as a one man band, perhaps 2 producing an add-on and asking for donations to add-ons that now command almost twice the price of the simulator itself.In the early days it was sufficient to release an add-on and then gradually patch it until it was fully workable because the initial outlay was small. Today, and by this I mean over the past 12 months, add-ons are being released that cost substantially more and yet the developers still seem to think that it is acceptable to gradually patch it until it is fully workable. In some cases the unpatched product is knowingly being released on CD which opens up a whole new can of worms from a consumer rights standpoint.A while back a payware producer started offering trial versions of their add-ons, I used these trial versions to determine whether the product met my requirements and on most occasions I then went ahead and purchased the full product. Sadly this try before you buy idea didn't catch on for some reason which is strange given that most non-flightsim software producers that do business over the internet provide 30-day, and sometimes more, trial versions so that the end user can determine whether the product is right for them.The continual release of products that are, in some cases, obviously not ready for market, the beat-up of new products before they are released so that the end user is quite often pushing the developers for a premature release, leads to angst amongst the flightsim community. Then starts the fan boys vs those experiencing problems and the inevitable flame fests that result. And then we get the strange requirement that users must sign their names to posts in the various forums or face the wrath of the developers or other users. Last I looked AVSIM encouraged the use of nicknames as do most online communities. If it is simply a case of keeping out the pirates then use a locked forum where you need to enter your purchase id or something similar. Some people are not comfortable using their real names on the internet, to deny support, or the ability to comment based on an unsigned post is petty and pointless.These constant bad experiences will lead to more and more piracy as people become more and more disillusioned with the high cost of add-ons that don

[KERNEL32 500]

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[John_Cillis 2,406]

"Anyone complaining in this thread - please read:"And anyone who believes people don't have a right to complain or should be embarrassed for doing so, please read:http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-...nstitution.html-John

[Guest mitch19542004]

>Imagine you went to McDonald's and ordered a cheeseburger.>When you've handed over your money they give you a>cheeseburger without any cheese. The guy serving you says>you'll get the cheese later on. Obviously disgusted at such>bad service you start yelling at the guy who served you. Then>some self righteous McD's a really excited user standing in the queue behind>you taps you on the shoulder and tells you to be grateful you>even got a burger in a bun.I got got a burger at McD's once that didn't even have the burger. Honest to God truth.Mitch

[hangar 661]

My personal opinion on this subject has been unchanged for many years now:Money spent on a product that i KNOW will satisfy my needs/wants is money i wont mind parting with. In this hobby its not so much a nickel and dime problem as some may be thinking. Most customers are willing to pay more for almost any sort of product IF they are assured they will be more than pleased with it after the purchase.Unfortunately, whatever it is that makes certain types of people very good DEVELOPERS, doesnt necessarily transpose onto their business skills as managers/owners/pr, etc and they tend to forget that the longevity of success for their business is truly reliant upon their ability to satisfy their customer base. Although you can never satisfy EVERYONE, you CAN, if managed correctly satisfy ALMOST everyone...and as far as initial sales offerings are concerned, from my experience as both a long time business owner AND software user i can say without hesitation that a "try before you buy demo" OR "full refund" policy is how a solid business to customer realtionship can begin from the start. That way, if they are not satisfied for any reason whatsoever, there would be NO hard feelings and they would be willing to come back at a later date to try out another product.Forum posts and magazines reviews from my experience are more for entertainment than a real tool that can be used to make an accurate buying decision due to the fact that we all have very different opinions, and very different needs as far as software is concerned, not to mention many different hardware configurations which could cause different results with such software. It is too difficult in most cases to be able to make a good buying decision based soley on what we read online and viewing some screenshots. Even videos, depending on how produced can sometimes leave out important information we may need to make the right choices, however, i think intro videos by now should be pretty much standard of any software being offered for sale. Its another tool that should be used to HELP the consumer make the right choice for themselves.Charge me whatever you like...$200, $100, $20...but as a trustworthy vendor to earn my respect and future sales you need to make certain that i wont get stuck with it if im not pleased for any reason...If i know going "in" that theres a try before i buy demo, or at least a no hassle refund policy, plus a nice long showcase video...im very willing to spend ALOT more money because i know ill either end up with a product that ill use for a long time and be happy with, OR if not, at least i know i wont be stuck and lose my money and be ###### at the vendor, reviewers, or those who may have given advice that was wrong for me personally.There's a new plane released on the front page news here that IS offering a try before you buy demo (6 minutes fully functioning i believe). I absolutely applaud this type of offering and hope that other developers will now show the same sort of business ethics and care for their customers by following suit...FINALLY.Dave Kalin

[Tabs 2,790]

>"Anyone complaining in this thread - please read:">>And anyone who believes people don't have a right to complain>or should be embarrassed for doing so, please read:>>http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-...nstitution.html>>-JohnJohn, you're missing my point. Certain people in this thread clearly do not understand how a market economy works or in fact think that the payware addon market is somehow different than markets for other products and that they are entitled to things at whatever price they see fit. This is not how it works - if you don't like the product or the price, you don't buy it.Just because I may want a new BMW 325 but can't afford it doesn't mean I should go whine about the price BMW is asking or even worse justify stealing one because of the "high" price.FS Addons are not a life necessity, in fact they are a perfect example of a luxury purchase. A company is entitled to price their products at whatever they feel their value is - your power as a consumer is to choose not to buy it if you think the price is not justifiable. Personally, I find it rather ridiculous to suggest this is the case when $50 won't net you more than an hour in a real plane, or barely a single dinner out and a movie.

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"FS Addons are not a life necessity"It's funny, I was going to post a general followup even to the point of mentioning the cost of aircraft time, since I've blocked out five hours of it over the next month :)That said, I feel people have a right to complain if they want to--buyers vote by purchasing a product, but telling buyers that they can't complain isn't in line with market economics either. Part of a market economy is discussion of product, and that includes pricing. It's telling consumers and warning them "Hey, is it really wise to blow $100 on Product A when Product B gives you 90 percent of that for $50"? And it's also letting developers know whether they are hitting that "sweet spot".Some developers simply go for the big price tag, thinking that shows the quality of their product. So, they sell a thousand units at $100 and pull in $100,000 and maybe $10,000-$20,000 "profit". When instead they hit the sweet spot of affordability, sell their product at $50 and five thousand units, and earn $250,000 and maybe $25,000-$50,000 profit.Discussing these things in the forums is healthy--it allows people to see the developer's point of view, and the consumer's. In the end it's nobody's business what the developer decides and they don't have to prostrate themselves or their books before the community, but hearing people vent does give the developer who has maybe misjudged the market the avenue for growing their sales.-John

[Guest IanP]

> I absolutely applaud this type of offering and hope that other > developers will now show the same sort of business ethics and> care for their customers by following suit...FINALLY.To which my question is this...Every few weeks, I do a quick search of a couple of P2P systems to see what codes have been leaked or files have been cracked for a couple of people I beta test for.In my experience, the models with "try before you buy" features appear a long time before those that don't. Why? because the hackers have "before" and "after" code to see what's changed. Makes their life a lot easier.Two developers I know - one I beta test for - have stopped doing trial versions, because people just fly the "trial" package until it is cracked.Unfortunately, that's the world we live in.Ian P.

[hangar 661]

>>Every few weeks, I do a quick search of a couple of P2P>systems to see what codes have been leaked or files have been>cracked for a couple of people I beta test for.>>In my experience, the models with "try before you buy">features appear a long time before those that don't. Why?>because the hackers have "before" and "after" code to see>what's changed. Makes their life a lot easier.>>Two developers I know - one I beta test for - have>stopped doing trial versions, because people just fly>the "trial" package until it is cracked.>>Unfortunately, that's the world we live in.>>Ian P.this is a moot point that some people just dont seem to understand. One thing has nothing to do with the other. The point here is building good customer relations, and a more positive experience for both the HONEST consumer AND vendor. Theft will be around no matter what we do, and offering demos or not offering demos is not going to curb that type of problem at all. Just look at Flight1...they offer a no hassle money back gaurantee, yet their products and wrapper are still hacked on a regular basis...same situation if they took the gaurantee away as well. It doesnt matter much either way as far as theft is concerned, everyone will be hacked no matter what. Stop worrying so much about that and spend MORE time looking for ways to attract and free-up the HONEST consumers wallet..by making it a risk-free encounter for them. You will make more sales that way, many less returns/paperwork/complaint handling, and youll be able to charge alot more money helping to make up for the theft to begin with. Not to mention that your reputation and rating for professionalism and customer saitisfaction will soar, spreading like wildfire by word of mouth and internet forum posts/publicity. Again, look at Flight1 and their policy..if it wasnt working for them they wouldnt still be doing it.Some sort of demo needs to be the way of the future for this market, because its the ethical thing to do, the right thing to do...but at least offer fast no hassle refunds..one or the other. if you want your own software business then treat it like a business by being as open, honest and helpful to your customers as you can..make their choice of dealing with you a most pleasant experience and they WILL return. Try it for 1 year. If it doesnt work then forget it. Something tells me you're gonna like the results though :-)Dave Kalin

[B777ER 2,485]

>The continual release of products that are, in some cases,>obviously not ready for market, the beat-up of new products>before they are released so that the end user is quite often>pushing the developers for a premature release, leads to angst>amongst the flightsim community. Then on the flip side of the coin you have other companies that promote all this stuff they are building and/or designing and then you never hear from them again or development time stretches to a year or more for one bloody product. Case in point, OSS and their year long development of just one airport..Kansas City.

[Guest IanP]

> Try it for 1 year. If it doesnt work then forget it. Something tells me you're gonna like the results though :-)That's exactly why the trial versions stopped. They tried it, people used the trial rather than paying for the package.Strangely, the group I'm talking about haven't had a massive drop in sales because they don't offer a trial version or a money back guarantee. They offer a good product, get good reviews and as you say, word of mouth is by far the best advertisment.There are a few organisations that could definately work on their professionalism and customer relations technique. That I won't argue with at all because it's very true.I'm sorry, though, but if you expect payware companies to offer trials of their products, you also have to expect more and more hoops to jump through to keep it locked to just one PC. The newly released product you mentioned previously is a very good case in point, Flight1 are another. Certainly neither company treats people as entirely honest simply because no-one can afford to treat people as entirely honest. It's a sure fire way to end up with millions of copies of your software in use, yet the developer ended up with payment for a tiny fraction of them.I'm bowing out of this discussion now.Cheers,Ian P.

[boshar 6]

No Paul, the most silly thing you did was not releasing a CD version for us credit card less (but not pennyless) Europeans. Come on man I'm waiting for more than a year on it. ;-)

[hangar 661]

>> Try it for 1 year. If it doesnt work then forget it.>Something tells me you're gonna like the results though :-)>>That's exactly why the trial versions stopped. They tried it,>people used the trial rather than paying for the package.>In years passed i can only recall 1 company offering a demo of their product and it wasnt an airplane, it was scenery...that was quite a few years back and i remeber trying that demo. The problem was alot of folks had some major problems getting the demo to run properly and getting the scenery installed correctly..it turned out to be a big hassle for some and hence the reason why they lost sales due to that. if yer gonna put out a demo there cant be show stopping bugs in it. The demo from what i know was not very secure either as todays technology allows, hence the easy cracking problem flaring its ugly head. it didnt work for them because it was implemetned very poorly at the time. Dunno if we speak of the same company or not but thats the only experience i ever had with an offered demo in the fs market.You have to realize a demo also needs to be time limited in a correct manner...just enough to give a full view of what your getting and enought time to see and feel it operate. Demos are obeing offered in a very successful and beneficial manner all over the software market these days. The FS market however seems to be leaving itself out...well except for x-plane...looks like it worked out well for that title as well because he's still marketing it the same way all these years..with a 5 minute demo fully functioning in 1 small scenery area. Well implemented enough to give the user a solid idea of what theyre paying for and if it suits them well or not, yet, too inconvenient for a user to stay with the demo for any regular use.>>I'm sorry, though, but if you expect payware companies>to offer trials of their products, you also have to expect>more and more hoops to jump through to keep it locked to just>one PC. Fine with me, lock it to 1 pc...but make it unlockable by the consumer as well for those times when we have to uninstall and build a new machine or reinstall the OS. Use a secure server side technique where the consumer can UNREGISTER their reg code temporarily so it can be re-installed within a certain amount of time and re-registered using that same code it came with. To me, thats alot better than always having my money and purchase decisions at risk, then if they go out of business let them be professional about it and offer permanent unlock codes for all.Dave Kalin

[jcboliveira 1]

Are you sure?Jos