>>That $50 gets you an addon that took 10 guys half a year to>>put together at an investment of thousands of dollars in>>reference material, travel cost to meet the real thing and>its>>owner/operator, maybe even talk with the manufacturer, and>>specialised equipment.>>I know that that is true for some add-ons but there are lots>of add-ons that don't have these costs but they get a 'market>price' to make it seem like they fall into this category.>Those will fall by the wayside, that's what market forces are for.Your "complaint" is prices in general, and that's very old and reads like "my daddy won't give me Nikes because they're too expensive but all my friends now no longer want to play with me".>>But if the EW ATR were to be released today it would be>>skinned, scalped, and burned at the stake of criticism and>>flames in these here forums for being utterly unrealistic>(you>>can't even flush the toilet!).>>Thats part of the problem nowadays. There are some a really excited user>that like to flaunt their knowledge about an aircraft and>their 'flying experience' and use that to nitpick about>everything detail of a product.>So everyone who wants something more complex than you is a "a really excited user" whatever that may be?>>>There's a market for both styles of addons but I fear that>you>>will find yourself ever more limited to the likes of PF and>>Abacus to buy things you like because they're among the few>>who target your market segment. And their prices are pretty>>much what you seem willing to pay for your addons.>>No offense but aircraft add-ons from PF and Abacus is not my>thing (I call that the lowend market). The middle market is>becoming extinct but it is a good thing because its being>replaced by good freeware. Take the IFDG airbus + the Eric>Marciano panel. The David Maltby Classic British Jet>Airliners. The 737 Experience by Felipe and Guilherme "Moach">Falanghe. To name a few.then what are you complaining about? First you say addons are too expensive, then you say they're too complex, and now you say that you can get all you want for free...

So your attention span has reduced from the hours it takes to enjoy a complex game like FS to the minutes you're trained to have it set at by rapid action TV commercials and first person shooters.That's not the fault of FS, unless you consider aviation itself to be at fault for not giving you an emergency every 30 seconds.

>As long as we all at least try to stay friends these>discussions are good and healthy to have. yes, quite true. Unfortunately the likes of people like Randy and Mr Wenting seem to have a large amount of baggage that they bring to each post, it does get tiresome.>Modern times, we don't want simple panels anymore, stuff like>PMDG's Queen of the Skies just skims FS it's practically a>program in it's own right from what I've heard and read, FS is>only used for weather and scenery (literally). For the kind>of access these guys get to planes to give us stuff that is>truly "as real as it gets" then they have to invest a lot of>time. Just an example here to keep it fair to as many devs as>I can, the RFP 747-200 classic is a wonderful example of>systems modelling, she's long in the tooth now but still>stands up well. RFP is a classic and has stood the test of time. >If you think about it, we pay what...

> This will be my last post in this thread...............Keep it going please :-lol

To original topics is that there is something wrong in the add-on market today. Its not al my personal complaint or a lack of funds from me. Look at the posting from Peter Wilding. I have a gut feeling that he is right. The current price off add-ons is driven up by the people that buy everything.I don not even have a complaint if you care to read my post. its is not the price perse. I just suggested that the problem lies in what you get for that extra money. One buyer will want a polygon monster of a model that looks just like the original, anaother will not care about the exterior but wants an FMC has a full secondary route, step climbs, level change function, etc. Even in the highend the expectations of the customer vary wildly. This is the main cause of all those complaints and bad feeling in the market.If you feel included by my comment about 'some' nitpicking a really excited user than thats your problem. If nitpicking makles some people happy than so be it but they give developers a hard time and make new add-ons by enthousiast less likely.

Mr Peter Wilding, both you and PMDG are the greatest examples what professional addon developer should be. I am sorry, but I couldn't resist calling names ;)It's interesting that you mentioned PMDG as your company is (as far as I understand) operating on different model (very small using external publisher vs rather big publishing by themselves)Anyway - both companies have many things in common- both companies "use" professionals full time- products are priced reasonably (in FE case I'd say very reasonably) - the quality of products is very high and that includes great user interface (this is very important) and support- both companies have that rare artistic + technical touch which is very important when it comes to game developemnt (and that comes from pros working in those companies)- both companies do not use stupid copy protection, one offers full refund if you don't like the product, the other I didn't check, but probably they would.This is the way to go. A compny like yours and from other side PMDG will I believe lead the FS addon market when it matures. Of course there are few more at the same level, which I didn't mention.PS. I check F1 page everyday for GE :). Same with 747 freigther from PMDG.

>

>Okay usually I don't post but I couldn't resist.>>First off if you don't like the price of addons don't buy>them. Its that simple. Go to the avsim file library and>download some freeware.>>Second. I don't know of many hobbies in which you don't have>to pay for stuff. I can't go and get an RC plane from the>local shop and take it home for a week to try it out. "public>beta if you will" If I want it I have to buy it. If I don't>like the price then I don't buy it.>Couldn't say better!!! I also think and act this way.

Koorby,Nicely done. The rest of the crying needs to stop. If you don't want to spend the money then don't! Period!Why do so many people act as if they are owed something? Where does all this entitlement come from? Just because someone buys FS, that doesn't mean they are entiled to a complete library of addons. You bought FS and that is it. You want quality addons, pony up the dough. Adios Muchachos. Scott

>Okay usually I don't post but I couldn't resist.>>First off if you don't like the price of addons don't buy>them. Its that simple. Go to the avsim file library and>download some freeware.>>Second. I don't know of many hobbies in which you don't have>to pay for stuff. I can't go and get an RC plane from the>local shop and take it home for a week to try it out. "public>beta if you will" If I want it I have to buy it. If I don't>like the price then I don't buy it.>>I have bought alot of addons and have had very few that>disappointed me, but hey that can happen with anything in>life. Overall I am really happy with the amount of work these>people put in whether it be in their free time or full time. >Point is I don't have the time or know how to produce the>stuff and don't mind paying someone else for it. Hmmm, well, er, uh ... lessee here. Your first point is or should be well taken by the flight community. You'll even find some GREAT addons there which are every bit as good as any payware extant. (Milton and gang comes right readily to mind here.)For your second point I only have this to say. When/If I go to the local hobby shop I can SEE and TOUCH that RC plane. That will usually tell me most of what I want to know about it. No, I still don't know anything about the flight handling characteristics but at least my tactile faculties have been satisfied or not. Now, I can hear some guy in the background saying "What if it's a kit?" So? At least I can SEE that kit and can see what quality is in the box. That will tell me, as a kitbuilder, quite a lot about the finished product.The problems as I see the market today; first, I haven't any possibility of "trying out" the product in any way. I'm buying "blind" here and if I don't like what I see AFTER I've paid my money, well, tough beans about that, you bought it, you got it. Second, the community isn't what it used to be. Time was, the recommendation you got came from Freddie down the street; he bought it and will readily show any and all in the local area what HE thinks is wrong with it. He's also taken the local hobby shop to task and might even have wrung a refund out of it. They, in turn, would look long and hard at re-stocking something that people don't like. Now, OTOH, the recommendations come over the internet from people I don't know. They may have an axe to grind; I can't know that. In addition, the sad fact is that those who are astute enough to go to the internet to find recommendations are very much in the minority as our hobby goes. This is all not to even mention all those who read the negative comments from "net friends" and then ignore them and go spend THEIR money also, complaining subsequently that they were ripped off. Anyone see themselves/theirselves here? Booyah!:D

I'm sure that what Steve means to say is that an XBox 360 version will work out of the box. Will be perfectly suited to a piece of hardware that only costs him only $ 500. That even has a central lobby service where you (in my opinion) could get add-ons and updates. Steve is talking about time lost in setting up the thing versus just playing and enjoying.Somehow you translated ease of use into short attention span and FPS playing. Probably just by the mentioning of 1 piece of hardware.

>For your second point I only have this to say. When/If I go to>the local hobby shop I can SEE and TOUCH that RC plane. That>will usually tell me most of what I want to know about it. No,>I still don't know anything about the flight handling>characteristics but at least my tactile faculties have been>satisfied or not. Now, I can hear some guy in the background>saying "What if it's a kit?" So? At least I can SEE that kit>and can see what quality is in the box. That will tell me, as>a kitbuilder, quite a lot about the finished product.But you can check screenshots on web - this is basically the same. 'Touch' them with eyes :)

"yes, quite true. Unfortunately the likes of people like Randy and Mr Wenting seem to have a large amount of baggage that they bring to each post, it does get tiresome."I agree. Their retorts and single minded arguments clog the threads.... day after day. Since I skipped Smith and Wenting's posts, I read the entire thread in four minutes. In response to the original post. I feel that play before pay is a solution without a problem. IMHO there is sufficient information available either via money back guarantee or trial software or informal reviews to make a decision. Some distributor's offer a money back guarantee. (Flight1). And many vendor;s who advertise no refund, will, if given a reasonable and courteous reason. Plus many offerings have trial versions. As far as value, I am in awe at the level of fidelity squeezed out of a toy math model. The complexity of the current high end payware is very high and enjoys the accompanying "undocumented features" (bugs). We have seen a few products released early, but on the whole they have been pretty good. Simply take the "second sitting" on new releases.I don't feel that commercial entity versus hobby is a big issue. The vendor's do enjoy a vertical market with a monopoly on development. And some are temperamental and touchy and rude and leverage their position against rude customers. It really isn't black and white. I know there are simmers who believe that if you eat like an elephant, you need to S**t like an elephant. But I'm very happy with the depth and breadth of add-on developers today. My point is that high fidelity introduces higher complexity. And expectations that higher fidelity is no excuse for more bugs is unreasonable to a point. And an informed purchase decision can be made. We are very fortunate to have a group of developers willing to challenge the envelope of simulation on the FS9 platform. I can accept a few patches as a cost for complexity and fidelity. Bob...

I have to agree with the good developers, I have purchased a lot (more than I admit to the wife), of paywares, and for the most part, have had little problems, except of my own doing, and,yes, have had some very distasteful experiences with a few developers, and will not purchase from them again, even though I think the product is good. But maybe a publisher like Flight 1 (super group), or VATSIM, could copy a great feature of EBay, where after a purchase is made, you are prompted to rate the service and/or product. What a great clearing house we would have for FS users. Just check the ratings, read the comments, and make your decision. At EBay, sellers are VERY concerned about their ratings, and I will bet a throttle, that this would clean up the payware and freeware industry in a few days. I would develop this system myself, but just know enough to turn on this FS moneypit!! Anyone agree?? RRL

>4) Dreamfleet/Flight 1 Whisperjet: Patch released after about>a year.Actually, I don't think you'll find it was broken in the first place and therefore has never received a patch.It did receive quite a major update that added 5 new additional models together with their respective flight models, documetation etc and a further 40+ liveriesOh, and that was for free.........which in hindsight was the most stupid decision I've probably ever made!Dreamfleet Project ManagerGreatest Airliners - DC-8Greatest Airliners - 727 Whisperjethttp://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpg