What is happening with payware?

[Guest JoJoDawg]

"I agree. Their retorts and single minded arguments clog the threads.... day after day. Since I skipped Smith and Wenting's posts, I read the entire thread in four minutes."@Bob I couldn't agree more, heck I thought I was going to be the first to post something about the way some tend to make other peoples opinions inferior to their own.On topic: I hope the pricing has stablized itself for the next few years. It seemed once one company did it most jumped on board and raised their prices too while the extra quality was lacking. I don't want prices on the high quality side jumping again just beacause FSX comes out also. Heck I hope FSX introduces some better tools to help the developers make products faster and cheaper.

[Steve Cannell 4]

Nothing wrong with my attention span JW. It's people like you that makes visiting these forums repulsive at times.If you read my post, you'd see I stated I've been flying flightsim for over 11 years. I have addon aircraft like the LDS 767, PMDG 747 etc and fly to places all around the world in real time. It's too bad I can't come here and express the way I feel about the state of our hobby without you and some other kids lecturing me and others on how things are in this world. I hear repeatedly this is the way it is and if we don't like it to bad, or don't buy it. No kidding !The fact is the numbers do appear to be dwindling and no I don't believe it's because of J Wenting. I think this hobby is becoming to complex, to difficult to maintain. How many times have you had to re-install FS for what ever reason and then many times the addons as well. Re-validate your lisence or key, send an email to get a new one and if that wasn't bad enough there's sp1, sp2, update 1.5, 2.0, 2.1, 2.3. Tweak this and configure that all in the persuit of perfection. Where do I find the time to actually fly ? Some I'm sure like all this tweaking and fiddling. I do not ! I'm not a screenshot junky, I don't get my kicks downloading every freeware offering in the library. I just like flying and it's becoming increasingly difficult to do so. At my age life is too short.Addon prices are too high. Yes, I have stopped buying them and if I have, then I'm sure their are others as well that are choosing to spend their money elsewhere. This has all started to take the fun out of a hobby I have enjoyed for many years.The XBox360 has brought a little more fun to what few hours I have to relax in the evening and nothing would please me more than to have Microsoft develope FSX for the 360.Blazing Angels and World Airforce are titles on the horizon. It's not Fs but it's a start.Steve

[Guest delta_one]

The only payware developer that i am not exactly pleased with is australian simulations. the piper warrior was due an update number 2 that has been promised for a long time ( well over one year) but seems to have stalled indefinately. don't get me wrong, i like the airplane but just wish developers do not promise what they can't deliver! the original version was released in july '04.

[neil0311 366]

Bottom line...it costs me $100/hr to fly the real thing, which I do because it brings me pleasure. I spend hundreds of $$$ on FS addons for the same reason, because they bring me pleasure. I've learned who to buy from and who is usually worth staying away from. If you think a product costs too much, then don't buy it. Vote with your money and your mouse. If you like freeware, then good for you. I prefer the better quality that most payware provides, and a $1000 a year is the same as 10 hours in the real things and a drop in a bucket. Why must people continually lament that payware...um...costs money? Don't buy it if you don't want it.

[virtuali 4,421]

>There's a new plane released on the front page news here that>IS offering a try before you buy demo (6 minutes fully>functioning i believe). I absolutely applaud this type of>offeringThank you Dave for pointing at that.I designed the sales/demo/protection system for Cloud9 (that will be used by several other developers as well in the very near future), and the main goal behind it was having the chance to offer a fully functioning Demo version for all products, both airplanes and scenery.I believe that offering a Demo version is even MORE important in the FS addon arena that in regular software developement. Usually, software is more stand-alone and independent, problems will normally come only from OS interaction.What we are really doing in FS are plug-ins, many hundreds (or thousands) of them, so we also have the added complexity of possibile conflicts between another 3rd party product ON TOP of the usual complexities of dealing with Windows software developement AND the always difficult and not very well documented interaction with the host program, FS.It's basically a miracle if products works at all (well, not really, but that's the point...), more exactly, the endless user configuration combinations nightmares that affects every standard software product, are multiplied by some factor in FS.Having said that, it's even more crucial being able to offer a Demo. This way, everyone can assess compatibility, stability, performances, or just simply getting his own personal opinion about the product on HIS OWN machine!With our system, there's NO difference in coding from the Demo and the Full product. The Demo IS the Full product, and can be bought and activated without even leaving FS! This way, when the full product gets patched, the Demo will reflect all the updates, so one could, for example, not being 100% sure of the first version, but he can check out again after a patch, if he likes.Just a clarification about the duration: it is 6 or 8 minutes depending on the product, but there is NO LIMIT on how much 6-8 minutes "bites" one can have. After the time is expired, one can simply quit FS, relaunching it, and having another run of 6-8 minutes. This way, the user can do all kind of adjustments, play with settings, change hardware, to see how the product will perform on his own configuration. There is no date limitation, no number of launches and not even a registration is required in order to download the Demo. When the user see fits, he can finally Buy the product, and can be 100% sure it will run ok, because this is what he's been testing.It's all good then ?Well, I should be honest and open: there IS the other side of the coin, in order to be able to offer these features, the product must be protected quite strongly. Not wanting to improvise anything, I had to rely on a very respected (so much that they have been choosen by Microsoft as activation technology partners for the MS Software Passport E-commerce site) and stable technology, Esellerate of course, and I've been doing the needed integration with FS. The advantage of using an industry standard provider is that I have a system that is rock solid because it's in use by thousands of other commercial/shareware products outside the FS world (ID Software is using it), the disadvantage is that I'm not always able to offer all the features I would like to have. For example, Esellerate right now doesn't offer a way for the end user to MOVE activations from one machine to another one. It can be done, but either manually from the support guys that can reach the server, or automatically but only every 90 days. Of course, as soon as Esellerate adds new features, we'll get it automatically.And, the other disadvantage is, of course, that some users are opposed to ANY kind of protection. Unfortunately, the server-based activation is the only technology we can use to offer a Fully-functioning Demo, with software prices that low (ruling out using hardware keys).Umberto Colapicchionihttp://www.virtualisoftware.com

[LAdamson 240]

>>Just a clarification about the duration: it is 6 or 8 minutes>depending on the product, but there is NO LIMIT on how much>6-8 minutes "bites" one can have. After the time is expired,>one can simply quit FS, relaunching it, and having another run>of 6-8 minutes. This way, the user can do all kind of>adjustments, play with settings, change hardware, to see how>the product will perform on his own configuration. There is no>date limitation, no number of launches and not even a>registration is required in order to download the Demo. >I confess, I used the X-Plane six minute demo over and over through a number of years. Could pause it to make changes, finish up the time period, and then relaunch it when the mood struck. Finally felt "guilty" when Austin (X-Planes designer) purchased a new Cirrus aircraft and needed fuel. At that point I bought version 7, but am back to demo's with version 8. Will many other simmers be like me? Probably, and I don't think this will help developers who are marketing a limited nitch product. Even if the product recieves more attention through "free demos" over the internet, I really believe that too many people are like me. We'll just use it to satisfy our curiosity, and then on to something else.Besides, if there are enough "free" demos, we won't have time to actually buy and use a product to get our money's worth! }( L.Adamson

[Jeff Nielsen 1,386]

B777ER:So now you want to flame me here in addition to our forums. Fair enough.I've suspended your forum account at OSS so you won't have to worry about us being slow anymore.I've publicly addressed the slow down issues and also stated the new policy about announcing new products. If that's not good enough for you, then, sorry. I guess I'll have to live with the fact that you're mad.

[skully 1,045]

In before the lock @-@

[hangar 661]

>I confess, I used the X-Plane six minute demo over and over>through a number of years. Could pause it to make changes,>finish up the time period, and then relaunch it when the mood>struck. sorry i cant resist here, lol...but you actually used that stinkin lil' 5 minute demo for YEARS?? aaahahahahahahahahaha, wow and i thought I WAS CHEAP! heehee! seems to me you were inserting just the tip all those years when for the measly cost of a couple tanks of gas you could of had so much more fun! ( im kidding, im kidding!, lol)>Will many other simmers be like me? Probablyagain...really sorry but i just have to...umm if thats true then the health of our payware driven fs market truly is doomed, hehehehehe :-)Dave Kalin

[qnh 70]

If we continue with meaningful discussion then there is no need for any lock. Pointless posts are not needed thanks--qnh>In before the lock @-@

[David Vega 348]

I can't recall an advanced ad-on release not followed by path(s), to include FS itself. Since 100% error-free seems to be unachievable, I set my goal towards purchasing a product whose developer has a reputation for minimal errors, and high quality. Though others have products that I would love to have, I force myself to ignore their offerings. It's not that they release buggy products on purpose, but that what they release is the best they know how to make. Dave Vega

[Shaka 2]

The keys... where are the keys...?;)- Martin

[Murmur 3,944]

>sorry i cant resist here, lol...but you actually used that>stinkin lil' 5 minute demo for YEARS?? aaahahahahahahahahaha,>wow and i thought I WAS CHEAP! heehee! seems to me you were>inserting just the tip all those years when for the measly>cost of a couple tanks of gas you could of had so much more>fun! ( im kidding, im kidding!, lol)Well, it's just a matter of interest. Probably he deemed the product not worth enough to buy it (X-Plane price was/is usually higher than MSFS series). Me too, I had the demo for several months, until I deemed it was worth to spend those money on it. I think there are a significant number of people who do the same.Marco

[Guest Kingair315]

>I recall - before the internet - that payware was the ONLY WAY>to get what you wanted. You had to go to a store and pluink>down some dollars to get... Remember the scenery packages that>ABACAS put together for FS3 and 4?> Then you were not very computer savvy. Long before the Internet, Abacas, or the Flight Sim existed, for about a decade before the Internet, there were the Community Bulletin Board Systems which made FREEWARE available. I was SYSOP of "The California Self-Help Bulletin Board System" (System Operator) The 2nd BBS in CA, there were 35 in the world, and I got calls from Europe, Saudi, Japan, etc for computer chat, idea swapping and software, etc.. From 1976 beginning with a System Forum on a 97k 5.25 diskette and one telephone line. By 1978 there were thousands of systems, and a world wide FREE Network called Fidonet exchanging email, forums, and software around the world. It grew into a download system with three 97k double sided drives, then to four 8" drives with a Meg, to a 5 meg HD that cost me $1800. Then a 20 meg drive with TBBS software and 16 telephone lines for access. By 1982 there were 1200 TBBS systems alone, with 1735 registered members on my system, 600+ were members of the largest computer club in the world, OCTUG. We were exchanging email, data, forums, etc via a Sat. system, with 1 day turnaround.... with FREE access to all. Who paid for it? Why I did of course, it was a hobby. Took it down in 1996, as I got burned out after 20 years, and by then the Internet was widely used by most, so membership was dropping off, but many BBS' continued on, some still exist today. BOB

[Guest Bell206freak]

Quote:+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Very detailed scenery packages that take scores of hours toproduce, for free? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++I've stayed out of this for a while, but I thought I'd chime in...It is possible to spend nearly ten months to a year on a scenery project and in the end release it for free. I am in fact doing this as we speak. For the last eight months I have been working on an extensive overhaul of close to 20,000 square miles of Washington State for Flight Simulator and to give you an idea of the level of detail, each airport (there's a dozen that I've chose to revamp) has been totally revised with all but the bare essentials removed and every scenery object at each respective airport hand modeled and textured in gMax. In fact, some buildings in the package alone have taken over seven hours to create, texture, and export to Flight Simulator. That includes the gas it takes for me to drive over to each airport I am revamping to take photos, the drive back home, and the time it takes for me to create the textures from the photos themselves. In the end, each airport in the package will look like you were looking at the real airport itself.Additionally, I am revising the AFCAD files of each airport so that they depict the airport as it really looks based off of high-resolution aerial photography I purchased for a hefty price through Terraserver and other local sources.Notwithstanding, I am also taking the time to revise hundreds of miles of roads, coastline data and other default LWM/VTP type scenery in the 20,000 square mile coverage area.I started this project eight months ago with the revision of Sanderson Field, then Tacoma Narrows. It grew as I decided to revise more airports.In addition to all of this, there's also going to be new landmarks in the package (some of which will replace default depictions such as the Tacoma Narrows Bridge, a photoreal Tacoma Dome object, all Seattle TV stations, etc).The projected release date is going to be in either late April or sometime in May, and in that time I will have spent nearly a year in development, with over six hours of development time per day.Am I charging for all of this? Nope.