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What is happening with payware?

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Hi,The reason is plain and simple,....;-)Some addon developers makes us all beleive that they are developing addons as a full time responsible job. While the truth instead is, that some of them are doing it as a hobby, developing at their spare time,...if they feel like it. :-hahhttp://www.scandicair.com/images/sa_banner.gif

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And this, precisely, is the problem: they treat it as a hobby, but CHARGE people for the product. Unfortunately, you can't have it both ways: if you charge, you should be held to the same standards as every other business. Because simmers are a patient lot, ready to rain down praise at a moment's notice (e.g., somebody posts a shot of some prerendered, yet to see the light of day addon, and everybody treats it like they've just been handed the crown jewels), many addon developers think they can drag their feet. Recent case in point: the 777 from PSS.ricardo

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>Many addon developers make us all think that they are>developing addons full time. While the truth instead is that>most of them have it as hobby, developing at their spare>time,...if they feel like it. :-hahSo??Personally as someone that has done plenty of freeware and does commercial work for a few other games/sims, I can totally understand NOT having the try before you buy. Hardcore FS buyers are a niche group and the numbers sold are not that great compared to the other products you mention. Many would just try it and after a few tries, probably move on to another addon, as I have done with several I have paid for.While I have a few that I really don't use anymore, I have never asked for my money back as they have other products I enjoy and I view this as supporting the developer and not being a whiner.There is more than enough info on the websites, the forums and from reviews to help make an educated buying decision usually, if you get burned, it's your own fault.I fail to see what so many in this community complain to try to make payware vendors conform to their rules, when all you have to do is act with your money. I have 2 individual vendors I don't care for and will never buy their products, no matter how good they are - and I am very content with that.Regards, MichaelKDFWhttp://www.calvirair.com/mcpics/mcdcvabanner.jpgCalVirAir International

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>>>Many addon developers make us all think that they are>>developing addons full time. While the truth instead is that>>most of them have it as hobby, developing at their spare>>time,...if they feel like it. :-hah>>So??Hi,I was refering to the horrendous addon price tag trend. ;-)http://www.scandicair.com/images/sa_banner.gif

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Exactly, I couldn't have put it better myself.If it's just a hobby, then don't charge for it. If it's a business then they should expect to be help up to the same standards.Imagine you went to McDonald's and ordered a cheeseburger. When you've handed over your money they give you a cheeseburger without any cheese. The guy serving you says you'll get the cheese later on. Obviously disgusted at such bad service you start yelling at the guy who served you. Then some self righteous McD's a really excited user standing in the queue behind you taps you on the shoulder and tells you to be grateful you even got a burger in a bun.Some would have us believe commercial addons for FS are a niche market and very little money is to be made from them. If that's the case why have we seen such an explosion of payware for FS in recent years? There's a pretty penny to be made from this hobby and lots of people are jumping on the bandwagon. Some of these guys are producing superb addons and deserve to be successful. Others are knowingly releasing unfinished and buggy products.The payware bubble will burst sooner or later, I just hope we don't lose the good developers in the fall out.

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These constant bad experiences will lead to more and more piracy as people become more and more disillusioned with the high cost of add-ons that don

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Wow... *:-* I didn't think many of you guys were still this clueless... The newbee's have an excuse but the rest of you don't...

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Guys none of you know for sure who is doing what and for what reason. None of you know who is doing this as a business or a hobby. Unless you know people personally you're comments aren't standing on any ground.Facts as to some who are doing this as a business:DreamFleetPMDGSimMarketFlight1EaglesoftFSDI have personnel friends who are either retired or do this to supplement their income. Nobody is getting rich here and in the whole scheme of things these guys are actually under paid.All you guys complaining about prices try this list on for size and see if you wouldn

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I think the add-on industry has lost the goodwill factor by the ever increasing asking price. Giving someone $ 20,- for his hard work and invested time is different from giving someone $ 50,-Somewhere along the way there is a pricepoint crossed that causes my expectation to win it from my goodwill. I expect something extra to be done in order to compensate for the higher price. With me lots of other buyers have the same expectations. But the problem is that if you get 100 add-on addicts together you will have 100 different oppinions on what needs to be improved.There is also another trend towards 100% aircraft systems simulation in the add-ons. So you get add-ons that have one guy doing the jobs of 3 men in the cockpit. What are we simulating here? Is the crew ill due to food poisoning and am I a lonely cab driver ex WW2 fighterpilot that has to land this thing? (at least he had his girlfriend to help him)Now the ultra system fans are judging every new add-on by this new standard. Do they honestly think that we all want to have the workload of 2 to 3 people and want to change the lightbulb in the pantry by ourself when it burns out?Funny thing here. I have two ATR 72's in my add-on hangar. The old Eurowings 2004 and the new Flight 1 version. They are even made by the same development team. Sure the Flight 1 version is technicaly much beter but still the Eurowings 2004 version gives me so much more fun to fly.The biggest difference lies in the fact that the Eurowings ATR has 1 2d panel that I hardly have to leave during the flight. The Flight1 version has me clicking like a wild man switching from Auto pilot to Pilot view back to instrument view. The technicaly perfect Flight1 ATR increases my workload so I have less time to enjoy my flight.To me the higer prices makes me loose my goodwill and the increasing ultra system simulation craze makes me losse my fun.

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"I think the add-on industry has lost the goodwill factor by the ever increasing asking price."And I think you need to get in the game to know what your talking about... :-boom

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Guest dpc

I don't know who you are buying your payware from but I could not disagree with you more. Not all software quality is the same as goes with addons for FS. A little research before buying is prudent. The trend of upward pricing only makes sense. As a whole, good addons are more complex than they were when FS9 first came out. Been the case in other versions as well. Do you really expect to get a full FMC sim for free? Very detailed scenery packages that take scores of hours to produce, for free? AND I always just love the statement about addons costing more than the FS9 itself. By that reasoning, nothing should cost more than Windows. Think of FS9 as the operating system for flight simulation. Like Windows, you get basic functionality and some tools etc. But if you want something better than notepad to write with, you buy an addon. I bought Office. It cost more than Windows.If you want a basic plane and basic scenery, you don't need to buy anything. If you want more, who are you to think you should get it for free? Fortunately there are plenty of good free addons. But, just because there are, it should not preclude anyone from earning something for providing a product. Their choice, not yours. Your choice is to buy or not.Many business ventures start out as hobbies. FS is just another one of them. And think about this - in real life, some people make money flying airplanes and some people pay to fly real airplanes. Now, how fair is that?! :7 -dave

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>Well Randy,...>>With all due respect, I really think you should think twice>before you post such a lame and uncalled responce. ;-)>>IMHO, I think he got a point here...:-)>>>http://www.scandicair.com/images/sa_banner.gif>> Is this the pot calling the kettle black? Speaking of "high priced" add-ons (In fact the most expensive aircraft EVER) Staffan, you SURE seem to LOVE Ariane's 737 vc2 and never mentioned a word about it's pricing! I bet this is also the reason for your nonsensical replys to all my posts. Please do not pretend to DICTATE how and to whom I can reply to on this forum, just who are you to tell anyone how to reply pal?...............Randy J. Smith................A PROUD MEMBER OF THE PMDG BETA TEAM[h4]Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations[/h4]

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and here come the fan boys.Why do you find this statement ridiculous? Once burnt some may make their own "try before buying" plans before shelling out their hard earned cash.--qnh>These constant bad experiences will lead to more and more>piracy as people become more and more disillusioned with the>high cost of add-ons that don

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Since you just said everything I was going to say.........I don't have to say it!!! :D And yes, I do research the product, or am at least well aquainted with the vendors before I buy. I don't agree with anything in the original post, including trial periods before you buy. L.Adamson

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>Do you really expect to get a full FMC sim for free? Not at all, but I do expect it to work out of the box.>Like Windows, you get basic functionality and some tools etc. But if >you want something better than notepad to write with, you buy an addon.> I bought Office. It cost more than Windows.So did I, and guess what, it worked with 99% functionality right out of the box>Many business ventures start out as hobbies. FS is just>another one of them. Yes it is, many business ventures that started as hobbies also fail due to the inability of the businessman to switch from being a hobbyist to being a professional.--qnh

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Guest dpc

Based on your responses, I really have to ask where the heck you are getting your Addons?I have products fromPMDGDreamfleetCresendoFSDAerosoftAeroworxEaglesoftFlight Sceneryand the list goes on. I can't say that I have seen what you are speaking with any of my purchases from them. Are there patches? Sure there are. Let me ask you, what version of Windows are you using? What service pack version is it and how many hot fixes have you applied? Your theory is just does not match with the current state of software in general.-dave

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Or have a realy nice hobby:1. Download the SDK's and search all flightsim forums for inside knowledge and tricks2. Use the free G-MAX that came on your FS2004 CD and invest lots of time in your hobby OR buy FSDS 3.0 ($50) to make development somewhat less time consuming3. Use your FS hardware for development. Use Simmarket to distribute your product4. Use your knowledge of your favourite aircraft (the one that made you want to become a developer in the first place)5. Browse at airliners.net and your local airport6. Find friends with the same interest as you or do it all by yourself7. Use free software (GMAX, GIMP, Notepad) get AVSIM to do your forum for you (even PMDG does it that way)8. Use airliners.net and the snaps you took with your family camera. Visit the local museum and take snapshots of your aircraft9. Inform with Simmarket and Simware about their rates. When not satisfactory consider setting up using PayPal (costs are 1.9% - 2.9% + $0.30 USD, depending on monthly volume) . Post pictures of your project in the sceenshots forums of the big FS sites10. Use your private webspace that came with your ADSL subscription. Volume will be low so you will get away with a small advertising site11. Look realy nice at those people from AVSIM or release part of your product as freeware for promotion and a free forum in the FS world12. Use that silly nickname you got in highschool. Use big letters and call it a logo.13. Call that handy friend to help you with the site prommis him some money if the add-on sells14. There is no 14 :-)15. Make a choice if you want to support your add-on. Chances are that your product is 100% SDK guidelines compatible and not overly complex. Your asking price is low so reasonable people won't expect to much from it. Have the time of your live with people from all over the world discussing your favourite aircraft and plan a beter version of it using their input.Thats $50 and a lot of time invested. If your $ 15 - $ 20 add-on sells good you will have some extra income or beer money. Don't give up your day job but at least someone is paying you for doing your hobby!

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Staffan is an Ariane a really excited user from way back :) Correct me if I am wrong here. But isn't he also a PMDG MD-11 beta tester too :-lol

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As a customer I judge if a product is worth the asking price. That judgement factors in my likes and dislikes. If I don't appreciate a VC, 100% systems moddeling and 1000 different paintjobs and those things happen to be the great sellings point of the product the product will not be worth its asking price to me.This is totaly subjective so I will always be right ;-)Remember the old saying: 'The customer is alway right' :-hah

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>Based on your responses, I really have to ask where the heck>you are getting your Addons?>>I have products from>PMDG>Dreamfleet>Cresendo>FSD>Aerosoft>Aeroworx>Eaglesoft>Flight Scenery>>and the list goes on. I can't say that I have seen what you>are speaking with any of my purchases from them. Are there>patches? Sure there are. Let me ask you, what version of>Windows are you using? What service pack version is it and>how many hot fixes have you applied? Your theory is just does>not match with the current state of software in general.>Add RealAir Simulations to that list. Excellent products with new innovations, and little in the way of required patches, if any. And throw in FS Genesis too!

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>Based on your responses, I really have to ask where the heck>you are getting your Addons?>I won't name names as that would be unfair - have a browse through the commercial support forums here to get idea>What service pack version is it and>how many hot fixes have you applied? Yes and those hot fixes are released reasonably promptly once a problem is detected. --qnh

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Guest christian

few comments:The try before buy concept is a great one and I fully support it. But there is a good reason it's not used in FS add-ons. Try before buy is relatively easy to implement when you distribute exe files. Addons are usually not exe files, so it's a lot more complex to do - which then raises the question of implementation cost. Are buyers prepared to pay for the extra development cost (even more exepensive addons) or happy to take a punt? Are you happy to pay for the extra cost of try before buy?The statement that people earn big bucks is a myth. Not many people do addons full time (less than a handful I suspect), and the market is very small. The production of a high quality addon costs almost as much as developing an indie video game. Yet profit is a whole lot less due to a very limited market and distribution system. To give you an idea, if I'd calculate an hourly earning from my sales it'll be somewhere at $3 an hour or less. To do this full time, I'd need to earn 10 times what I earn now. The reason most people develop addons is because they have a passion for flight simming, nothing else.Yes, quality differs and there certainly are overpriced addons. The problem again is that this is a very small market and selfregulation doesn't work that well, but it certainly is happening to some degree. If someone thinks this is a great way to make an easy buck, they will realise that it isn't very quickly. Also, selfregulation probably doesn't work well in the entertainment business in general - how many bad movies and computer games make good money, and how many great ones flopped? Like with anything, read reviews before you buy.Cheers,Christian

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