it reads like just another post excusing the user in his own mind for his own piracy."I'm just punishing unfair companies trying to steal my money" is one of the oldest excuses used by pirates.Another classic is "it should have been a patch therefore I'm just taking what is mine".

Sweet plane Robert! Love those naked panels!!-Jeremy Burchhttp://home.earthlink.net/~dawgfighter/sit...es/swvasig1.gifSWVA4806 http://www.virtualswa.com/home.phpThe Ozark Dogfighter http://forums.avsim.net/images/wedge.gifHappy Flying!BOAC: Heathrow Centre, British Airways Speedbird Flight 723HC: British Airways Speedbird Flight 723, Heathrow Centre, go aheadBOAC: Heathrow Centre, British Airways Speedbird Flight 723 has a message for youHC: British Airways Speedbird Flight 723, Heathrow Centre is ready to copy messageBOAC: Heathrow Centre, British Airways Speedbird Flight 723, message is as follows: Mayday, Mayday, Mayday ....

>In the early days So basically... in the early days, before people would slam your product for not getting the climb rate exactly correct, or if the buzzard beeps twice instead of three times, or if the sound isn't exactly as you heard it sitting in your coach seat... right?OK, just making sure we all understand how far payware and freeware have advanced. Personally, I think it is insulting to expect people to work constantly to please "you" by coming out with their hard work for FREE. I truely respect and enjoy the freeware that is out there, but I understand that not everyone has so much time on their hands.

The price you are paying people for their hard work on an hourly rate has in fact dropped markedly over the last several years.That $20 got you an addon that took 2 guys maybe a week to throw together using some photos from airliners.net as a reference and maybe an old copy of an aircraft book or some website to get basic performance figures.That $50 gets you an addon that took 10 guys half a year to put together at an investment of thousands of dollars in reference material, travel cost to meet the real thing and its owner/operator, maybe even talk with the manufacturer, and specialised equipment.If you like the EW ATR better than the F1 model than the style of addons that people demand these days doesn't appeal to you. You will still be happy with the $15 addons that are available as these are the same or better than the $20 addons of a few years ago which is what you seem to want.But if the EW ATR were to be released today it would be skinned, scalped, and burned at the stake of criticism and flames in these here forums for being utterly unrealistic (you can't even flush the toilet!).It's that increased realism and detail that users demand which forces that extra investment and therefore raises the cost of addons.In the end we're doing it to ourselves.There's a market for both styles of addons but I fear that you will find yourself ever more limited to the likes of PF and Abacus to buy things you like because they're among the few who target your market segment. And their prices are pretty much what you seem willing to pay for your addons.

Microsoft also has a dedicated support staff of thousands to produce them, which is reflected in the price of their products.If you want say Dreamfleet to hire another 3 people solely to do support and making bugfixes expect their prices to rise another 50% to compensate.

>Every so often a flightsim enthusiast brings this subject up>and always with the view that "payware is the enemy" and>"payware needs to be marketed the way "I" think it should be>done">I'm not saying that payware is the enemy, I just think they need to be a little more professional if they are going to charge for their work. As I and others have stated there are payware developers that have released product that was so obviously not ready, and yet they were ready to take the cash. There are developers that continually push their products before release and then get upset when people start demanding a release date, and then there are those that have pre-release payment options. Perhaps some of these developers or those who are marketing for them should concentrate more on getting the product right the first time.Now I am fully aware that there are many many variables in peoples computers that developers simply cannot account for. That is one of the reasons that I think the try before you buy option is essential, it can also be a kind of extended beta.I have plenty of payware addons and mostly I am happy with them, after they have been patched a few times. I also have some that will sit on the virtual shelf until I throw them out. Public beta testing is becoming quite common in the software industry, why even Microsoft is running public betas.--qnh

>Personally, I think it is insulting to expect people to work constantly >to please "you" by coming out with their hard work for FREE. Slow down a bit there friend and re-read the post. I am not suggesting that people give me their hard work for free. I am talking about a time-limited trial period, similar to that in place for other software, call it public beta if you like.--qnh

Perhaps you should concentrate on the rest of the post if you don't like how that part is written.--qnh>it reads like just another post excusing the user in his own>mind for his own piracy.>"I'm just punishing unfair companies trying to steal my money">is one of the oldest excuses used by pirates.>Another classic is "it should have been a patch therefore I'm>just taking what is mine".

yes, the increased development cost (which would have to be reflected in shelf price) of trial versions is a big reason.the ease with which those trial versions can generally be cracked (which is a big reason they're getting less and less with other software as well) is another.Exception to that are specially created trial versions which are essentially separate product from the real thing, but those make the customer angry because he then has to remove the trial version before installing the full version and there will be accusations that you put features into the trial that the full product lacks just to get more customers (it's happened in the past, the accusations that is)...If you want to reduce that risk, your cost goes up even further.And if you have a trial version people will complain that it doesn't allow you to try the product for long enough or in an area large enough... It's a no-win situation for the developer.

big round of applause, now why ain't I so good with words :-beerchug :-rotor :-wave

Looks like a fun thing to fly.Yes, your experience shows what many people who start out in this industry experience as well.They want to give something back and either find that the investment is not worth it anymore (it's getting too expensive in time and/or money to do for free, it's effectively turning into a second job taking time away from what you really want to do) and/or the feedback from the people you donated your work too was hostile or non-existent and you start to wonder "why bother?".At least if you sell it you get some compensation for your investment and some feedback from peoples' wallets at least.

Jeroen, you are of course correct, but now and then another flightsimmer comes along with the same crusade about why payware developers don't do things the way "THEY" think it should be done and how XYZ company should be shunned.The shorter answer is that consumers have the choice and the responsibility to either opt IN or opt OUT of the market.

Payware is doing what it has always done - offering a product to consumers.I recall - before the internet - that payware was the ONLY WAY to get what you wanted. You had to go to a store and pluink down some dollars to get... Remember the scenery packages that ABACAS put together for FS3 and 4?Let's put it all in perspective. Payware can (and often does) offer high quality aircraft flight models, systems simulations, etc, at a reasonable price.Now, the tricky part is affording all the offerings...http://www.ldsflyingclub.com/siggies/ds.gif

Okay usually I don't post but I couldn't resist.First off if you don't like the price of addons don't buy them. Its that simple. Go to the avsim file library and download some freeware.Second. I don't know of many hobbies in which you don't have to pay for stuff. I can't go and get an RC plane from the local shop and take it home for a week to try it out. "public beta if you will" If I want it I have to buy it. If I don't like the price then I don't buy it.I have bought alot of addons and have had very few that disappointed me, but hey that can happen with anything in life. Overall I am really happy with the amount of work these people put in whether it be in their free time or full time. Point is I don't have the time or know how to produce the stuff and don't mind paying someone else for it.

>>Personally, I think it is insulting to expect people to work>constantly >to please "you" by coming out with their hard work>for FREE. >>Slow down a bit there friend and re-read the post. I am not>suggesting that people give me their hard work for free. I am>talking about a time-limited trial period, similar to that in>place for other software, call it public beta if you like.Same difference as there is no gaurantee that the user would buy it and you have to also go to the trouble of making the trail version as well as the full version.If every developer of software had the same skills and tools, then there would be no choices and a monopoly on a single product. This is the case with FS developers as well. If one addon has a neat, innovative feature (*cough*FMC*cough*), the buying community somehow EXPECTS every other develper to incorporate the same features, it just doesn't work that way.Regards, MichaelKDFWhttp://www.calvirair.com/mcpics/mcdcvabanner.jpgCalVirAir International