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Guest davidvoogd

What happened to the pro-con reviews?

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Lately the reviews I have read do nothing but compliment payware aircraft. I feel this is a dis-service, especially when there are obvious issues that arise. If you say a product has no issues, and it has some obvious ones that require a big patch say that was released this past weekend, isn't that telling a little white lie? Don't get me wrong, the aircraft being reviewed are great and I have purchased most of them, I am just wondering how you can say something is perfect when it clearly isn't? Maybe not show-stopping issues (some may disagree possibly) but at least something that should be addressed. Am I wrong for thinking this?

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AlexI find that the best reviews are those opinions which I get when I ask in a forum about a particular product. That way you stand a better chance of getting a cross section of views whereas a review can only give you the opinion of one person - the reviewer himself or herself.David

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I agree. I don't even read the reviews anymore. As you point out, the conclusions are usually predictible. The biggest favor a reviewer can do for the prospective purchaser is to pinpoint the problems. But, sadly, this just isn't the case anymore. The real reviews come from the users of the product - assuming the forum mods don't lock the thread :-) . Doug

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I don't know and ##### is pro-con reviews?

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Except for possibly one or two reviews, ftmp I disagree. First of all, I think most of the major sites don't waste much space reviewing poor add-ons. So right off the bat you are going to get mostly positive reviews. But really, afaic it's the job of the reviewer to evaluate the product in a reasonable way, comparing it to other similar products and assessing how well it does what it sets out to do. I don't think it's the job of the reviewer to browse through all the forums and then list every little issue or complaint one or two or four people might have. If there is a bug or problem that seriously impacts the products usefullness or performance then sure, make note of it. Given the complexity of these things now, patchs are a virtual inevitability. But I guess the question that should be asked is "are any of the issues you might be referring to big enough that they should disuade someone from purchasing the add-on?" I've got several of the planes that have recieved five star reviews over the past few months and in every case they absolutely deserved five stars so I don't see a problem.

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I'm not denying a 5 star rating, what I am wondering about is the lack of any depth in the review. Previously I remember reading reviews that would at least point out the negatives to allow the reader to make up his/her own mind. If you've ever read reviews from video game magazines and websites about video games, they will at least point out the obvious bugs. Talking about how great an FMC is, and how complete it is, yet the exact opposite was true until the patch was released, is really just stretching the truth (at least point out in the review there is a patch to fix almost all the issues or update the review once the patch comes out). In the past, reviews here would say things like hard on frame rates, low VC refresh rate, blurry panels, etc. But now, its "this product is perfect, nothing wrong!" and a few more sentences and that's it. I guess it's just a marketing tool now instead of an actual "review."Oh well, good to know and I will not read them anymore. I think speaking the truth and letting people know what to expect is better than having somebody purchase something they assume is perfect and find the opposite is true.

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Well, I think anyone who purchases any product (particularly a flightsim add-on) with the expectation that it is going to be "perfect" is seriously deluded (and not by a review).

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Zevious and all,Perfect products is not the issue. Anyone who has spent any time using computers is well aware that there is no such thing as "perfect," software.However, I do agree with Bid Al regarding the lack of depth in the reviews here. . .especially of recent. That combined with some needless censorship. . .just today a string on censorship here was, itself, censored. . .and I'm starting to question what affect that selling commercial products on the Avsim website is having around here.I can't help but think perhaps Avsim is becoming simply a commercial outlet for the products it carries. . .carrying through with a positive promotion campaign for each and every products. Nothing wrong with that.But of course, if so, we will wind up just having to search elsewhere to read "real," reviews. . .Gary Hawk

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If you compare the Avsim review of the LDS767 with the Flightsim.com review they are basically the same which I think points to the high quality of the product. Having said that the Flightsim review is mildly critical of the quality of the panel textures but it also has incorrect information saying that a tutorial is not available. The Avsim review talks about both tutorials and recommneds the Long Haul Tutorial. As for either review talking about specific patch issues, it really depends on the reviewer, if I were the reviewer I would have to say I only have one minor issue (two monitor sound) as everything else has been perfect. So basically the review is one part of the total information available, the others being forums and the developer site.Mark.

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If you feel you can contribute to the community by writing well researched and balanced reviews, including pro and con information, you should apply to Avsim for a reviewer spot. Avsim is always looking for new blood and interested and dedicated contributors.From personal experience, I can attest that this can be quite a rewarding and interesting "job" and that you are free to express your opinion on the quality of the reviewed product (pro and con) as long as it is well founded.

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"Well, I think anyone who purchases any product (particularly a flightsim add-on) with the expectation that it is going to be "perfect" is seriously deluded (and not by a review)." Very well put. Also how..or for whom, do you rate an addon. As an example...we seem to have had a running debate on this siteabout the advantages...preference for VC vs 2D cockpits-Panels. Now my personal opinion about a lot of this is....what do you use FSfor in the first place. It may be for a "Walter Mitty" desire to be...for a time.. an airline captain. An escape from the reality of your life..so to speak. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! In my own case I fly C172, in all kinds of situations, because I'mtrying to use FS as a vehicle to get me back in a REAL cockpit. Now as far as the "eye candy" is concerned, to me it is way secondto realistic flight dynamics. To Me!...and only to me..if the panel/cockpit was right..I couldcare less if the plane had the right number of ENGINES. A point in fact...Someone on the forums here has a sig line to theeffect that there are more space shuttle pilots than Concorde pilots. Well if all goes well there will be more shuttles flying than Concordes..last count 0. Who is qualified to judge the flight dynamics of a B-29? Someonewho had stick time in one in 1949... or the two or three guys who currently fly the ONLY one still in existence. I guess I bring a lot of "baggage" into this from my other love...cars. In the old days we used to have a saying "If it don't go..Chrome it". Slow..but looks nice. During those years I got a real distaste for car shows..things thatare based on LOOKS. WHY? Because they are always SUBJECTIVE. A car placed in the "Competion" class of a car show might not getfirst place because the "Judges"...Reviewers..might think the rear suspension of a competing car might be more "Inovative". Never mindthe FACT that in a REAL Drag Race, the one with the "Simple" suspension would have won. In Drag Racing we had...have a saying.. "When the hammer drops,the B.S. STOPS. Whomever, gets to the finish line first wins. Makesno difference that the car is; cleaner,shinier,more aerodynamic,..just WHO GETS THERE FIRST WINS...PERIOD. I'm most likely going to get myself in trouble here but I'mgoing to plunge ahead anyway. If you do not run "Realism Settings" to full, and you do not utilizeindividual stick/yoke and rudder controls, then "flight dynamics" probably shouldn't even enter your mind. Hope I haven't bored you folks...Rant over. Good flying DennyProfessional Tourist

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As to that post, I removed it because it basically stated a couple of baseless accusations about the motiviations of Tom and myself. Instead of getting into a back-and-forth tirade, I removed it.And I'm not trying to start it back up either, so...If anyone would like to discuss my motivations for removing that thread for my moderation of this forum or the relationship between commercial vendors and this forum, please feel free to email myself or Tom.

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I really don't understand your tirade. You addressed absolutely nothing that I mentioned, instead you went off on your own little spurt. But I never expected perfection, I just am questioning a review who claims a product IS perfect, yet if you head on over to the support forums, you will find many issues with the functionality of the systems, not any eye candy. When the review claim the FMC is the best out there, and there were glaring issues with its functionality causing it to be incomplete and unable to do a few important things, that were for the most part just fixed, doesn't that seem a bit odd?I am not an aviation expert nor a professional writer. I have a full time job but ever since the first Flight Sim I have slowly built up my interest to now I am trying to save up to get my licesnes and make a career out of it. I am not qualified IMO to write a review but possibly I will look into it in the near future. I am just questioning the motives for the current reviews which are dissapointing because I use to be able to turn to them for a good review and at the least pointing out the issues so I could decide if I wanted to buy right away, wait for the patch, or not even consider it.

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Alex,You bring up some good points. I agree that the reviews today don't point out as many of the negatives as those reviews from a couple of years ago. Seems to be that way on most simming websites. Programs today are definitely better than they were a few years ago, but the complexity also opens the door to more problems.No doubt, the people selected to write reviews at AVSIM are carefully selected. Still, it comes down only one person and that is part of the problem. It's like trying to run a beta test by picking the single most skilled person you can find.We all use the same program differently, on different systems, and we all have our favorite areas to fly, and so on. To get a really accurate assessment of a program, a wide sample of opinions is needed from people that use the program in all sorts of ways.The larger the beta team, the more chances bugs will be noticed and pointed out to the developers. Same goes for reviews. I read the main review, then consider the forum comments. Just like judges in a sporting event, I ignore a few of the best and worst forum postings and then take in the rest to get a "big picture" perspective.I'm thankful there's large community of people here to report on programs and help everyone out.Bruce

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Big Al; Sorry; Didn't mean to ruffle feathers. Actually responded to Zevious.Rather piggybacked on him no offense to you intended. I actually own only one payware item ** Wings of Power, and I findit quite enjoyable. Although certainly no more so than the FSDZignsLO49..which is Freeware. Good luck in your career attempts. Mine are almost over:-lol My rig; AMD Athlon 3200XP, ATI 9600XT, 1 GIG DDR3200 Value Ram,XP Home,CH Yoke and Pedals, No Name 320 Watt PS, Creative 16 PCI Sound Card,and lots of tweaks supplied mostly by these good folks at AVSIM. I also get 20 to 25 FPS MIN but I'm Happy as I've only got $650.00Invested in the whole shootin match. DennyProfessional Tourist

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I agree with the original post, that is why I dont use reviews in weighing my decision to buy a FS add-on. Rather I goto the forums and read what others are saying. Would you read the New York Times movie reviews section, if the critics only praised every movie? That's how I feel, so I chhose not to read them. I am not bashing any reviewer on this forum, for I know that he/she has dedicated his free time to write a review. Food for thought: Of the three American Idol judges, why has Simon gained so much popularity and commerical endorsements?

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Mark,I think we're talking about a general view of recent reviews. Not just regarding a single review as you suggest. (BTW, I'm not even remotely interested in anything having to do with LDS products.) Maybe if you bring up some other reviews we can talk about them.But overall, it's a general "feeling," that is staring a hover in the local area. That's all.Gary Hawk

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Ken,Relax a little. No need to beat your chest here. I don't think anyone is questioning your deletion or mod powers. If anything, I was trying to be very supportive of Avsim and the staff moderators.I stand by what I said in that post. Free speech vs free enterprise. And here, the only free speech is that allowed by the moderators. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.And certainly nothing to get upset about.Gary Hawk

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I agree with the original post. However, I still use reviews to the extent that I take them with a grain of salt, and often, they give a different picture of the features of the product. To this extent they are useful to me.Thomas

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"However, I do agree with Bid Al regarding the lack of depth in the reviews here. . .especially of recent. That combined with some needless censorship. . .just today a string on censorship here was, itself, censored. . .and I'm starting to question what affect that selling commercial products on the Avsim website is having around here."Nothing to get upset about?

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What about setting up a user review section? Something like what they have at Simmarket where you can rate it from 1 - 5 stars and do a short writeup. As long as people are truthful and objective it can be a great addition to the full length reviews.One thing to keep in mind is that people tend to review products they like - I feel the most important thing is for someone to state their likes and dislikes in a review so I can see where they are coming from. For example for myself a 2D panel is the most important part of any addon plane, so if I review a product I can't give a full evaluation of the virtual cockpit - as I never use them.In the end Avsim did ask for more people to write reviews - if you don't like them - try writing one yourself. I mean this in a constructive sense. The more reviews we have the more angles we see a product from.

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Hi all,If you suspect a review is not up to par with what you are experiencing or what you have read here or elsewhere, you do have options.1) You can place feedback to the reviewer which is accessed in each review. You can also read others comments.2) Write your own review.3) If you don't own it and are considering purchasing it, and have seen issues pop up, simply outline all those issues in one post and ask current users if it's still broke. Or start a thread of what people don't like about the product.There is nothing wrong with listing issues, bugs, problems, whatever, for any aircraft you own or might buy. Just be ready for mud being slung at you for asking the questions.This is especially true if a product has closed forums and you are contemplating a purchase. I've even seen stupid responses such as (paraphrased)"well if you don't own it yet, why do you care if x works or not" , as if you have NO right to ask questions about an add-on for sale. Sorry, but people can offer their opinions whenever they choose.Bottom Line, write your own reviews of your experiences and put it in the forums. You will reach a lot of people if it is truthful, and you will be doing a service to others even if the vendor doesn't like it.One more thing, I also think a Review should state if a company is using just about the same FS2000 Panel that is being hawked for sale now. :-) Regards,Joeaopa.gif" border="0" alt="Grab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

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If you think the reviews are no good, write your own and submit them.It's as simple as that.If you think there's a conspiracy going on to give only things sold in the Avsim store good reviews, go read the reviews elsewhere (for example fs.com where they won't give something a good review because Avsim sells it).But don't come in here spouting all kinds of baseless accusations. You apparently have an agenda against Avsim, given your continuing campaign to badmouth this site.

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"Bottom Line, write your own reviews of your experiences and put it in the forums. You will reach a lot of people if it is truthful, and you will be doing a service to others even if the vendor doesn't like it."WRONG ANSWER... Correct answer... Write your own review and put it in the just opened AVSIM READER'S REVIEW FORUM (now open for business and which can be found in the Hangar section)... :)

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