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124th ATC also works, but requires a flight plan and is blissfully unaware about AI.

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On 9/1/2018 at 5:40 AM, Gary McCluskey said:

f they come out with it, I'm definitive gonna try it. Other than the ATC, I loved xplane. 

 Its a bit like saying, i love that car, best one you can buy, buy I dont like the colour so ill get the cheap one... ATC is an issue but flying in XPLANE even without it surpasses everything else.

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13 hours ago, mjrhealth said:

ATC is an issue but flying in XPLANE even without it surpasses everything else

I have actually know two people not buying card because they don't like the colours available! Anyway, in the world of aviation, I would have thought that ATC is pretty critical - I don't want to fly without instructions from them. I'm trying a feww programs, including Pro ATC/X with P3D as well.

To be honest, I think, with flight simming, we all like something different about it - and for me ATC is pretty important, and I can understand it if it's different for other people.

Gaz

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3 hours ago, Gary McCluskey said:

I would have thought that ATC is pretty critical

In commercial aviation, it is.  But you wouldn't believe the number of private pilots in the US that go to great lengths never to speak to ATC due to the perceived intimidation factor. In that respect, they agonize over it even more than the average new comer to online ATC.

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, DaveCT2003 said:

In commercial aviation, it is.  But you wouldn't believe the number of private pilots in the US that go to great lengths never to speak to ATC due to the perceived intimidation factor. In that respect, they agonize over it even more than the average new comer to online ATC.

 

 

 

I don't think that intimidation is the biggest factor. In much of the US, the need for constant ground-based monitoring of a VFR flight on a sunny day is looked at by some pilots as something that is not needed. Without the threat of challenging weather, terrain and other nearby aircraft, ATC just adds another layer of things to do other than "fly the plane". That's not my philosophy, but I've run into more than a few private pilots who believe that. It seems to be a more prevalent opinion in the US Midwest, South and the Great Plains states.

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If you can't communicate with ATC, you shouldn't fly, no matter how devoid of traffic your aerial region is.

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19 minutes ago, Bjoern said:

If you can't communicate with ATC, you shouldn't fly, no matter how devoid of traffic your aerial region is.

Where or where did I place that Face Palm graphic?

😉

 

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40 minutes ago, Bjoern said:

If you can't communicate with ATC, you shouldn't fly, no matter how devoid of traffic your aerial region is.

Uh... right. So, If I want to use the sim to fly bush planes and helicopters in the mountainous areas of the PNW, Alaska, New Zealand, New Guinea, and South America, where there is no ATC coverage, I should just stay on the ground and not bother to fly?

I understand why ATC is important to a segment of the flight sim community, and I'm glad that Laminar is working on improving it. But it's ridiculous to assume that ATC is something that everyone *must* use, before cranking up a flight sim. We all fly in different areas, for different reasons. Some of those areas and reasons have nothing at all to do with ATC proficiency.

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I would of thought the two most important things in being a Pilot is .

1. The ability to fly the plane- which Boeing not so long ago where complaining that due to technology pilots where forgetting how, and

2. Knowing where you are- again to technology- who has to know how to navigate teh GPS does it for you.

I seem to see more and more people, who get in the plane  - some just want it already started- set up GPS take off, switch  on auto pilot, than want to autoland, what is teh point in that. But than Im old, i dont trust technolgy, i guess al those people who followed there car GPS into rivers and farmers paddocks enlightened me.

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5 hours ago, Paraffin said:

Uh... right. So, If I want to use the sim to fly bush planes and helicopters in the mountainous areas of the PNW, Alaska, New Zealand, New Guinea, and South America, where there is no ATC coverage, I should just stay on the ground and not bother to fly?

I assume he was referring to real life flying? 🙂

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1 hour ago, Murmur said:

I assume he was referring to real life flying? 🙂

I quoted the whole statement, and it had no other context. Since this this is a flight sim forum, I think it's fair to assume that was the context. 🙂

Even in real life flying, there are plenty of situations devoid of ATC contact. I spent a whole career doing aerial photography as part of the job, and there were places in the Central and South American bush country where my pilot never touched the microphone. Instead of contacting approach control, you make a low pass before landing to make sure cows or pigs aren't on the grass "runway." 

Even back in the USA doing real estate and cruise ship gigs, I don't recall my helicopter pilots contacting ATC except for basic tower notifications on takeoff and landing. We were always at very low altitudes under VFR rules. The radio traffic was either with the company base, or coordination with our crew on the water for boat shoots.

To be clear, this isn't an argument or excuse for the poor state of ATC in XP11. Just a comment on the idea that ATC is somehow the make-or-break feature for all sim pilots. It just depends on what aspect of aviation you're trying to simulate, and they don't all include a full-featured ATC simulation. 

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13 hours ago, DaveCT2003 said:

Where or where did I place that Face Palm graphic?

😉

I've got one next to my "useless posts" folder.

 

13 hours ago, Paraffin said:

Uh... right. So, If I want to use the sim to fly bush planes and helicopters in the mountainous areas of the PNW, Alaska, New Zealand, New Guinea, and South America, where there is no ATC coverage, I should just stay on the ground and not bother to fly?

I understand why ATC is important to a segment of the flight sim community, and I'm glad that Laminar is working on improving it. But it's ridiculous to assume that ATC is something that everyone *must* use, before cranking up a flight sim. We all fly in different areas, for different reasons. Some of those areas and reasons have nothing at all to do with ATC proficiency.

I was talking about real aviation, as was Jay's preceding post. You can do whatever the heck you want in a flight sim.

The "remote areas" argument is a bit weak, since you generally start at an airfield with ATC coverage moving stuff to airfields where there's none.

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20 hours ago, DaveCT2003 said:

In commercial aviation, it is.  But you wouldn't believe the number of private pilots in the US that go to great lengths never to speak to ATC due to the perceived intimidation factor. In that respect, they agonize over it even more than the average new comer to online ATC.

 

 

 

Omg! I didn't realise that. I would have thought it was very critical to be using atc, however big your aircraft is. I watch the Air Crash Investigation programs on National Geographic, and quite a lot of problems seem to come down to atc. 

Anyway, with P3D and all its fantastic addons, I'm sticking with that! 😀😀

Hope you're well, Gaz

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9 hours ago, Bjoern said:

The "remote areas" argument is a bit weak, since you generally start at an airfield with ATC coverage moving stuff to airfields where there's none.

That wasn't my experience outside the USA. Most of the flights I chartered in Brazil started out in a very basic airfield, with nothing but fuel drums and a basic support staff. There is an entire world of aviation out there in third world countries and remote areas, that has nothing to do with ATC interaction.

Not all helicopter company bases are located at big airports either. Especially the ones operating "scenic" tourist flights.

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4 hours ago, Paraffin said:

That wasn't my experience outside the USA. Most of the flights I chartered in Brazil started out in a very basic airfield, with nothing but fuel drums and a basic support staff. There is an entire world of aviation out there in third world countries and remote areas, that has nothing to do with ATC interaction.

Not all helicopter company bases are located at big airports either. Especially the ones operating "scenic" tourist flights.

If you have experience in such areas, fair enough.

 

I still maintain that learning ATC communication is an integral part of aviation training if you want to see more than just remote locations, simulated or real.

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On 9/3/2018 at 9:05 PM, Bjoern said:

I still maintain that learning ATC communication is an integral part of aviation training if you want to see more than just remote locations, simulated or real.

When training, I would agree with you. But, to use the UK as an example, once qualified there is no requirement to talk to ATC if you're outside of controlled airspace. In Class G airspace in the UK (which covers much of the country), to quote directly from the UK NATS website, "aircraft may fly when and where they like, subject to a set of simple rules. Although there is no legal requirement to do so, many pilots notify Air Traffic Control of their presence and intentions and pilots take full responsibility for their own safety, although they can ask for help".

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I have a hand held radio in my plane (no electrical system) but no transponder (because...no electrical system). I rarely talk to ATC except for towered airports. There’s no point in requesting flight following since they can’t “see” me.  Are you saying I shouldn’t fly?

I do talk to the CTAF or Unicom at any airport I land at or fly over without a tower just to let other traffic know I’m there. But, again, where I usually fly, it’s not really necessary. I’m almost always the only one around at these little strips. 

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