Just Flight 747 Classic

[bic 44]

I really enjoyed the CLS 747 on FSX, I like doing step climbs as they are somewhat under powered with full load after takeoff.

[American 833 Heavy 132]

On 7/16/2018 at 9:28 AM, ErichB said:

Does anyone even know how to use an INS these days?

 

The INS really isn't all that hard. Think of it as an analog FMS that has space for up to 9 preset waypoints with their exact lat long position. If you need more you start replace the waypoints you flew over already with new ones further down your flight OR if you have dual/triple INS like these birds had. You set each INS in sequential order and switch over to the other INS' when you've flown all the waypoints on a particular one (Used to do that in the SST Concorde for example it works great)

I personally love INS and VOR/NDB flying when using classic airliners. It makes it fun and forces you to think. Your head is the moving map, picture intercepts etc.

Its great stuff.

But it would be nice to also have an FMC for some late 90s and 2000s era 747 Classic type flying. Ala KLM, Martinair and the Freighters.

[SimeonWilbury 220]

On 7/22/2018 at 11:30 AM, scianoir said:

The piece of information that interested me most on the product page was that this is being developed by their very talented in-house development team (as distinct from Aeroplane Heaven) so I think there is a good chance the 747 will come with decent functional systems. The recent aircraft developed by their in-house team have received a lot of praise and hopefully, although it’s a big project, they will be able to keep up this standard with the 747. In contrast aircraft developed for Just Flight by Aeroplane Heaven have been variable in quality on release and some have been the subject of a fair bit of criticism as a result. This can’t be good for the reputation of Just Flight, who, to be fair, are one of the most pleasant, helpful and polite flight sim developers/vendors to deal with in terms of sales and product support. I guess it may be a while but I look forward to seeing the finished product.

Bill

Yeah, it tends to depend which team develops it, they've had one or two aircraft in the past developed by Blackbox which obviously weren't tremendously good.

[miami747 7]

It does say some type of FSX flight plan integration. So maybe some type of simple way of putting the flightplan into the INS and then having the INS basically fly the flightplan uploaded into FSX. Or just a NAV/GPS type thing like what was on the RFP 742. 

While flying the original thing is nice by the late 1990s and early 2000s, which is when many of us fondly remember the 742 classics running for KLM, Northwest, BA etc.. they had updated V/S indicators and many with FMCs. 

Some type of fairly simple FMC for flight planning and fuel would be nice. 

Edited July 26, 2018 by miami747

[SAS443 1,723]

On 7/23/2018 at 12:53 AM, American 833 Heavy said:

 

The INS really isn't all that hard. Think of it as an analog FMS that has space for up to 9 preset waypoints with their exact lat long position. If you need more you start replace the waypoints you flew over already with new ones further down your flight OR if you have dual/triple INS like these birds had. You set each INS in sequential order and switch over to the other INS' when you've flown all the waypoints on a particular one (Used to do that in the SST Concorde for example it works great)

I personally love INS and VOR/NDB flying when using classic airliners. It makes it fun and forces you to think. Your head is the moving map, picture intercepts etc.

Its great stuff.

But it would be nice to also have an FMC for some late 90s and 2000s era 747 Classic type flying. Ala KLM, Martinair and the Freighters.

There is nothing "analog" about these INS. 
The heart of the CIVA INS - which you refer to - is the DCU (digital computer unit).

And there are INS solutions that could store up to 98 waypoints, such as the LTN-92. You would be amazed how advanced that gizmo really was (is?). It could even fly RNAV approaches for you.

Compared to the Delco INS we have in FS, the Litton INS-unit blows it out of the water. Shame that nobody has done a good rendition of it.

 

[Airline2Sim 489]

It is going to be quite difficult to fly without an FMC as a huge number of SIDS and STARS require some kind of RNAV at most airports these days. 

You could manually punch the fixes and lat/long of the waypoints into the INS but that will get boring very quickly. Plus the high workload on the birds will overcome a lot of magenta line simmers. I hope they have some ideas on how to make it all a bit more manageable. 

 

[Christopher Low 5,353]

There must be loads of classic airliners available that do not have a modern FMC. Surely the extra challenge is one of the main reasons for flying them?

Edited July 25, 2018 by Christopher Low

[KrisJ 43]

Currently i al flying my Dc-10 on INS and planning all flight figures on paper with use of calculator only. I hope Just Flight will make its 747 as Real as it gets, instead of „managable” to satisfy „magenta” simmers.

[American 833 Heavy 132]

23 hours ago, SAS443 said:

There is nothing "analog" about these INS. 
The heart of the CIVA INS - which you refer to - is the DCU (digital computer unit).

And there are INS solutions that could store up to 98 waypoints, such as the LTN-92. You would be amazed how advanced that gizmo really was (is?). It could even fly RNAV approaches for you.

Compared to the Delco INS we have in FS, the Litton INS-unit blows it out of the water. Shame that nobody has done a good rendition of it.

 

You're parsing words my friend.

I simply said think of it as an analog FMS if there was such a thing, which there clearly isn't. I didn't say it is one or the other. The context of my response was regarding using an INS and used that wording as an example to compare and contrast new to old.

Technically speaking you are correct. That and all the complex gyroscopes it has to triangulate its position in the world. They do the same job an FMS does today. Another good comparsion would be MS DOS to Windows 10 for example.

Back in the day a French Panel designer did the Litton INS for his popular and extremely well done A300B2/B4 panels. It worked more like the primitive L1011 CDU FMS then it did a CIVA INS. I never quite spent enough time to figure out how to use it. It worked radically different then the CIVA from what I recall.

The Littons weren't really that popular IRL. The CIVA INS and offshoot INS' from competitors that worked similar to it were hands down the most popular units on 60s to early 80s era widebody airliners. 707, 747CL, DC10, L1011 (Non-CDU Equipped), A300B4 and the Soviet IL86s which had CIVA like units on the Navigators station.

[American 833 Heavy 132]

9 hours ago, KrisJ said:

Currently i al flying my Dc-10 on INS and planning all flight figures on paper with use of calculator only. I hope Just Flight will make its 747 as Real as it gets, instead of „managable” to satisfy „magenta” simmers.

Where'd you get the INS in your DC10 from? Care to share?

 

The DC10 HD from JF sadly has no INS. And for that reason I'll refuse to use it until it has one.

I actually regret buying it truthfully. The exterior model is nice but thats about it. The sounds are bad. VC still leaves a little to be desired in some areas and the FDE : it feels awfully light on the controls you can do stuff like raise the nose at 90knots etc.

 

Hoping JF improves this for 747. Same thing has held me back from purchasing the VC-10 which I want badly. But i'll keep waiting for the VC10 Pro version with the INS.

[SAS443 1,723]

28 minutes ago, American 833 Heavy said:

Technically speaking you are correct. That and all the complex gyroscopes it has to triangulate its position in the world. They do the same job an FMS does today. Another good comparsion would be MS DOS to Windows 10 for example.

And here is the next misconception. There are two ways really to try to estimate a position. Triangulation and deduced reckoning ("dead reckoning")

A GPS system onboard an airliner would use triangulation to exactly determine your position. (optimal case would be 5, where 3 are used for position, 1 for altitude and 1 for detecting obvious errors on the first four satellites. RAIM prediction basically)
An INS will use the principle of dead reckoning. So INS must know the velocity from acceleration and the INS must also know where you are and establish azimuth orientation (hence position alignment), whereas a GPS installation will not require you to tell it where you are - it kind of figures that out automagically.

Accumulated errors in INS are dependent on time, while GPS are position dependent

I agree that INS is not hard to operate, but it's a complex piece of kit under the hood, that's for sure. 

[Mace 1,927]

11 hours ago, KrisJ said:

Currently i al flying my Dc-10 on INS and planning all flight figures on paper with use of calculator only. I hope Just Flight will make its 747 as Real as it gets, instead of „managable” to satisfy „magenta” simmers.

 

What DC-10 with INS are you flying?

I know a user on the JF forums (F-Lite subforum) has said he has integrated an aftermarket INS unit to the aircraft, but wasn't quite done with the mod.

 

[JRBarrett 3,072]

The freeware CIVA INS from http://www.simufly.com has been around for years and is a fully accurate emulation of the actual Delco Carousel 9-waypoint INS. It’s been used in many add-on aircraft, including the FSL Concorde, and the Ready For Pushback 742 which was THE 747-200 Classic aircraft to fly back in FS9 days.

Hopefully JF will integrate the simufly INS in their upcoming 742 - it’s pretty much a “must have” if they are trying to make an accurate classic 742.

[KrisJ 43]

10 hours ago, American 833 Heavy said:

Where'd you get the INS in your DC10 from? Care to share?

 

The DC10 HD from JF sadly has no INS. And for that reason I'll refuse to use it until it has one.

I actually regret buying it truthfully. The exterior model is nice but thats about it. The sounds are bad. VC still leaves a little to be desired in some areas and the FDE : it feels awfully light on the controls you can do stuff like raise the nose at 90knots etc.

 

Hoping JF improves this for 747. Same thing has held me back from purchasing the VC-10 which I want badly. But i'll keep waiting for the VC10 Pro version with the INS.

Acctually i fly JF Dc-10 HD and i love it. But it took me a lot of work to make it flyble. My „version” is now everything you miss: integrated (2D) CIVA INS, incredibly accurate Dc-10-30 590k flight  model portover from SGA, immersive sound set from TSS, true Dc-10/ MD11 GPWS alerts, and last but not least - accurately reflected cockpit lighting with both white/blue or yellow option from FSLSpootlight. 

 

And this is all in P3D v4 but it makes some limitations - missing click sounds in the cockpit. I solved that partially by using some addons available here on Avsim.

 

i will post some screenshots when i am back at Home at evening.

[KrisJ 43]

Here you go as promissed:

 

Edited July 26, 2018 by KrisJ