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Cruachan

VULKAN for Prepar3D v5?

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Yep, the fact is that even if your smashing new API makes it easier to pipeline graphical objects over more cores it still requires a back end algorithm that can split out the work of all the objects across cores, that is the things the objects decide to go and do and where they go and in what relationship they have with other objects in their assemblies. I've provided expert help in this arena and that's a roadblock for most.

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Steve Waite: Engineer at codelegend.com

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1 hour ago, Cruachan said:

Well, it looks like we’ve just been served up with a heavy dose of digital reality!

Nahh! None of us can predict the future when it comes to gaming technology. There are games written using Vulkan:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_Vulkan_support

But none have been game-changers. It only takes one smash hit game to push a new technology forward with a vengeance. One has to consider that some of the push to adopt Vulkan is to shift games to Linux. The desktop market is not where the action is in gaming as consoles and phones are taking the bulk of the industry's attention. Thus progress is slower.

Edited by jabloomf1230
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...So upgrading the graphic rendering won't be enough on it's own although it should be good whoever you are. Updating our favourite sim or game to a newer API that is newer is because it utilises newer GPUs developed in the advance toward handling DX12 type of specification. Historically flight sims didn't do much usually because they have always been designed around just you in your x,y,z with 6 degrees of freedom. Whereas new flight sims and other systems must run the computation of a million or more things interacting across the scene. GPUs are going to grow in that direction.

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Steve Waite: Engineer at codelegend.com

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2 minutes ago, jabloomf1230 said:

Nahh! None of us can predict the future when it comes to gaming technology. There are games written using Vulkan:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_Vulkan_support

But none have been game-changers. It only takes one smash hit game to push a new technology forward with a vengeance. One has to consider that some of the push to adopt Vulkan is to shift games to Linux. The desktop market is not where the action is in gaming as consoles and phones are taking the bulk of the industry's attention. Thus progress is slower.

Yes, as I mentioned earlier it is a sort of ploy to get cross platform sales. Someone else must have purchased a Mac. 🙂

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Steve Waite: Engineer at codelegend.com

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12 hours ago, SteveW said:

Yes, as I mentioned earlier it is a sort of ploy to get cross platform sales. Someone else must have purchased a Mac. 🙂

Hi Steve,

I can understand why someone in the industry might be thinking along those lines, but why the cynicism? Surely it’s in everyone’s interest to see the adoption of an API that is both efficient and helps to facilitate the move towards cross-platform compatibility?

To quote the first para from the Intel Software Developer article:

If you're a game developer and not yet up to speed on Vulkan, you should be. Vulkan APIs are one of the industry's hottest new technologies. They support multithreaded programming, simplify cross-platform development and have the backing of makers of major chips, GPUs, and devices. Vulkan APIs are positioned to become one of the next dominant graphics rendering platforms. Characteristics of the platform help apps gain longevity and run in more places. You might say that Vulkan lets apps live long and prosper...”

Ah, but I am hearing the cry: “Prepar3D is not a ‘game’ and it’s accepted classification as a serious simulator aimed at the commercial, military and academic implies that all this is irrelevant”.

But is this truly the case? Does not Prepar3D share many of the coding hurdles as it’s gaming counterparts? Could it not receive further benefit from the adoption of a fresh approach? The move to 64bit could not have been easy so we can be certain the LM Development Team are no strangers to daunting challenges.

I think we can all agree that significant changes are afoot for the next major version of the sim. Speculation about what such changes might be is probably fruitless, but might they not include a new engine or even the adoption of an API that could help the sim move forward towards an even brighter future in terms of how it exploits fully the capabilities of existing and future hardware?

Yes, words are cheap especially when uttered by a half-educated troglodyte such as myself who cannot possibly grasp the complexities and enormity of the challenges presented by such tasks. Nevertheless, like many others, I can still dream....and leave all the nuts and bolts to those with the skills and vision to realise those hopes and expectations.

Sadly, with Prepar3D, and for all the reasons discussed, we may have to accept that this may not take place or at least not to the extent we would have preferred. One thing we can be sure of and that is LM are unlikely to be accepting second best or the persistence of the status quo. So, hold this space...anything could and might indeed happen!

Best regards,

Mike

 


My rig: ASUS ROG Rampage V Extreme, i7-5960X (Dynamic OC 4.6 GHz - all cores, HT=ON, AM=21845), Corsair Hydro Series H110i GT Cooler with 2xNoctua NF-A14 PWM 140mm fans, G.SKILL Ripjaws 4 series 16GB (4 x 4GB) DDR4 3000, ASUS GTX 1080Ti ROG STRIX 11GB, GDDR5X (Driver versions: 441.66 (Win7), 452.06 (Win10)), Samsung 850 EVO 1TB SSD x4, Samsung 970 EVO 2TB V-NAND M.2, LG BH16NS40 16x SATA Internal BDRW, EVGA 1200 P2 Watt PSU, Cooler Master HAF X, ASUS ROG Swift PG278Q (G-Sync) monitor at 120Hz. Oculus Rift. Dual Boot: Windows 10 Pro 64bit (2004) / Prepar3D v5.0.31.35253, Windows 7 Pro 64bit / Prepar3D v4.5.12.30293.

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Found this video on youtube,
 

From watching the video, it does show that Vulkan is more " powerful " than DirectX12 based on this 3dmark benchtest, if that's the right choice of word to use? Would Prepar3d benefit from switching? Well that's something we would have to wait and see.

With X-plane, DCS World, Aerofly having/are making the switch, that could be the deciding factor, if there is noticable improvements on all of those sims that are making the switch, surely it would be a no brainer for LM to follow suit?

Edited by Marc Banger

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Hi Marc,

Impressive indeed! However, we are advised that there is a not insignificant paradigm shift when comparing games with study level flight simulation platforms like Prepar3D. In the end, that’s what may be dictating what’s possible in terms of time, resources, training and financial investment needed to implement such a sea change. On the other hand, as we look around, such an investment in the future of the simulator could turn out to be the best option. As you said, we can only wait and see what transpires.

Regards,

Mike


My rig: ASUS ROG Rampage V Extreme, i7-5960X (Dynamic OC 4.6 GHz - all cores, HT=ON, AM=21845), Corsair Hydro Series H110i GT Cooler with 2xNoctua NF-A14 PWM 140mm fans, G.SKILL Ripjaws 4 series 16GB (4 x 4GB) DDR4 3000, ASUS GTX 1080Ti ROG STRIX 11GB, GDDR5X (Driver versions: 441.66 (Win7), 452.06 (Win10)), Samsung 850 EVO 1TB SSD x4, Samsung 970 EVO 2TB V-NAND M.2, LG BH16NS40 16x SATA Internal BDRW, EVGA 1200 P2 Watt PSU, Cooler Master HAF X, ASUS ROG Swift PG278Q (G-Sync) monitor at 120Hz. Oculus Rift. Dual Boot: Windows 10 Pro 64bit (2004) / Prepar3D v5.0.31.35253, Windows 7 Pro 64bit / Prepar3D v4.5.12.30293.

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Too many comparisons with modern games and the expectations are too high which leads to disappointment.  Modern games have a 200x 200km world usually, maybe bigger, but they loads in sections. Its also usually views directly in front at ground level. Lots of interactions and effects going on, but still its in a relatively narrow field of view.  Comparatively , flight simulation we want to see 100 miles out, with full live real world weather, AI, top notch scenery moving at a fast pace, all the while calculating sophisticated aircraft physics, and complex systems. List goes on with everything thats going on. To expect the same performance as todays games just doesnt seem realistic no matter what the rendering engine can or could be. Best we just hope for a much smoother experience that can just deal with heavier scenery and aircraft, but I doubt we will see high fps in those circumstances. Aerofly with vulkan example looks fantastic, but its empty other than great looking scenery. What happens to it when WX, complex aircraft, AI, and ultra detailed airports are added into the mix? 

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Dave Seminchuk  CYVR LSZH 

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1 hour ago, HighTowers said:

Aerofly with vulkan example looks fantastic, but its empty other than great looking scenery. What happens to it when WX, complex aircraft, AI, and ultra detailed airports are added into the mix? 

Orbx Netherlands (for Aerofly) will release soon according to JV, and I know many have also been waiting for an upcoming Florida scenery that has been in the works for quite a while.....

Both should be showcase sceneries (Vulkan or not) and while some will love the potential of what they see, its just as certain that some will likely say it means/proves nothing.

Until a certain level is reached (and even after, I suspect) it will all be driven by speculation, and whether one's glass is half full, or half empty! 

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5 hours ago, Cruachan said:

Hi Steve,

I can understand why someone in the industry might be thinking along those lines, but why the cynicism? Surely it’s in everyone’s interest to see the adoption of an API that is both efficient and helps to facilitate the move towards cross-platform compatibility?

Yes I know all that, and of course I am always keen for any improvements, anywhere.. Problems concerning the improvement of P3D full-on are not simply in the way it can run the screens although that's a good move but just a move to improve the efficiency of what it does in graphics handling won't be enough to bring in the changes to performance we want, but I'll take it.


Steve Waite: Engineer at codelegend.com

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2 minutes ago, SteveW said:

Yes I know all that, and of course I am always keen for any improvements, anywhere.. Problems concerning the improvement of P3D full-on are not simply in the way it can run the screens although that's a good move but just a move to improve the efficiency of what it does in graphics handling won't be enough to bring in the changes to performance we want, but I'll take it.

Rephrased:

The performance improvements we all desire will not be achieved by switching to DX12 or Vulkan.  

That's it.  End of story.

With that in mind, wouldn't you rather LM focus on other things?

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58 minutes ago, HighTowers said:

Best we just hope for a much smoother experience that can just deal with heavier scenery and aircraft, but I doubt we will see high fps in those circumstances. Aerofly with vulkan example looks fantastic, but its empty other than great looking scenery. What happens to it when WX, complex aircraft, AI, and ultra detailed airports are added into the mix? 

Hi Dave,

What these Aerofly FS2 videos are demonstrating is excellent performance along with apparent significant overhead of available resources. We don’t need our flight simulators to be running at 120fps. A fresh installation of Prepar3D runs quite quickly at the default situation, but that soon changes as we start to pile on those high quality extras!  I imagine the team behind AF2 are feeling pretty confident about their sim being able to accommodate all those essential Addons without an unacceptable impact on performance.

Regards,

Mike

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My rig: ASUS ROG Rampage V Extreme, i7-5960X (Dynamic OC 4.6 GHz - all cores, HT=ON, AM=21845), Corsair Hydro Series H110i GT Cooler with 2xNoctua NF-A14 PWM 140mm fans, G.SKILL Ripjaws 4 series 16GB (4 x 4GB) DDR4 3000, ASUS GTX 1080Ti ROG STRIX 11GB, GDDR5X (Driver versions: 441.66 (Win7), 452.06 (Win10)), Samsung 850 EVO 1TB SSD x4, Samsung 970 EVO 2TB V-NAND M.2, LG BH16NS40 16x SATA Internal BDRW, EVGA 1200 P2 Watt PSU, Cooler Master HAF X, ASUS ROG Swift PG278Q (G-Sync) monitor at 120Hz. Oculus Rift. Dual Boot: Windows 10 Pro 64bit (2004) / Prepar3D v5.0.31.35253, Windows 7 Pro 64bit / Prepar3D v4.5.12.30293.

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Lots of certainties in this thread. 😂 Rob had a vastly better performance in AFS2 Vulkan beta compared to OpenGL (45-60 fps vs 90-200 fps). "End of story"???

 

Edited by Murmur

"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." [Abraham Lincoln]

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Yes, I think the key for AFS2 developers is to make sure that addons (AI, ATC, FMS, ...) will naturally gravitate to separate CPU cores so that the logic and math will not impact graphic framerates. The only other graphical element that I can see that needs to be added is clouds - which can be a a real issue. AFS2 has already demonstrated with ORBX Innsbruck and Monterrey that airport building complexity and many houses and trees can be easily accommodated at high performance.

Dave W.

Edited by whitav8
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9 minutes ago, TechguyMaxC said:

Rephrased:

The performance improvements we all desire will not be achieved by switching to DX12 or Vulkan.  

That's it.  End of story.

With that in mind, wouldn't you rather LM focus on other things?

Like the development of a new engine, perhaps? If the current engine is struggling under the load all we can really hope for are further optimisations unless, of course, something else is in the works.

Regards,

Mike


My rig: ASUS ROG Rampage V Extreme, i7-5960X (Dynamic OC 4.6 GHz - all cores, HT=ON, AM=21845), Corsair Hydro Series H110i GT Cooler with 2xNoctua NF-A14 PWM 140mm fans, G.SKILL Ripjaws 4 series 16GB (4 x 4GB) DDR4 3000, ASUS GTX 1080Ti ROG STRIX 11GB, GDDR5X (Driver versions: 441.66 (Win7), 452.06 (Win10)), Samsung 850 EVO 1TB SSD x4, Samsung 970 EVO 2TB V-NAND M.2, LG BH16NS40 16x SATA Internal BDRW, EVGA 1200 P2 Watt PSU, Cooler Master HAF X, ASUS ROG Swift PG278Q (G-Sync) monitor at 120Hz. Oculus Rift. Dual Boot: Windows 10 Pro 64bit (2004) / Prepar3D v5.0.31.35253, Windows 7 Pro 64bit / Prepar3D v4.5.12.30293.

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