Looking at these forum posts, and at the wishes of flightsim users of features to be added to FSX, it seems like the users are on different wavelengths then the development team at MS. It seems like most users here want more realism, better weather, flight dynamics, ATC system etc etc etc. On the other hand, the Aces team is focusing on getting FSX into the hands of gamers, focusing their attention on adventures. It seems odd to me then, that the team asks the "hardcore" users what they think should be improved, when the "hardcore" user base isn't what the team is focusing on at all. Now, I know there will be little features/improvements here and there for the devoted user, but in my opinion, as one of these devoted users, the only thing I see as a real improvement is the graphics upgrade. Of course I do hope the team makes an announcement like a final list of upgrades/new features, but at this point most of the improvements I wished could have been made haven't been made, and probably won't have time to be made. I'm not saying the ACES team is wrong, but I am saying it seems we have two different visions of what FSX and future versions should be, and I think therein lies the frustration of some users.

Your not posting yet another "Let's moan at FSX before it's even out" type thread are you? :-lol

No, I'm just making an observation. While it's true I probably won't get everything I wish could have been improved in FSX (Hey, life ain't fair, as they say), I will of course buy it anyway and I'm sure it will be great. All I'm saying is that I think a lot of people who make the "lets moan about FSX" posts are the ones frustrated because the ACES team is focusing on a different demographic.

They will, when it's released, LOL. You obviously don't see the big picture. There ARE many users here that want the features that you say are aimed at new users. When you have a majority of people that buy your product wanting/needing one thing, common sense and business dictates that is who you please. Keep in mind that the "hardcore" user base is a small percentage of the total users.I'm pretty sure they asked all types of simmers for the opinions. why not just wait till it's released and you get to see if it makes you happy or not before passing judgement on what features where included and the ones that were not.As for frustration goes, it's human nature, everyone wants what they don't have and some are just more vocal about it. Regards, MichaelKDFWhttp://www.calvirair.com/mcpics/tfbeta.jpg

Apparently my post wasn't read correctly. Let me reiterate, I'm not making a judgement on the product, I'm making an observation on how the focus of the users is different from the focus of the dev team in my opinion. Like I said before, I think, like everyother FS release, it will be fantastic. Uh oh, I made a judgement before it's even released.

Yes Alex I see your observation. hm. I see your point, but I am not quite in 100% lockstep with it. It is fact that the FS team has paid some attention to the hardcore users--their mere presence on this forum is indicative of that-- and they have certainly paid much more attention to hardcore than in past versions, where there was little, if any involvement with the hardcore people.Rhett

>..and they>have certainly paid much more attention to hardcore than in>past versions, where there was little, if any involvement with>the hardcore people.>>>Rhett...and i'm not sure that you can make that observation with any level of accuracy. MSFS could have carried out an even greater participation with "hardcore" users previously, just not in the public way they have in this instance, now a much better way IMHO.Chris Porter:-outtaPerthWestern Australia

I'm not sure that the Avsim forums (or anyone's forums) represents the "hardcore" FS users.It does tend to represent a group of users who like to call themselves hardcore realistic users. That again is an opinion.Personally I have my doubts about the willingness of many of them to explore and learn. They seem to be very set in how they want the game to look and unwilling to consider that someone might have a better, different way to implement something.I've actually seen a post were one of the most vocal experts claimed that "everything possible was known about FS2004 six months after it's release" which would be laughable if it weren't so sad.Yes, I do agree that the ACES team seems to be on a different path than most of the people making posts on these forums.That's hardly not surprising.The ACES team is responsible for developing a product for a mass markets, of which this forum represents a very tiny segment - a very expensive segment.It's all about balance - and where to put development dollars.The ACES team has shown very clearly that they are moving toward a more "realistic" sim, but they are also aware that realism doesn't sell the game. Visuals sell to the majority of people.The discussions over a default FMS are funny. People whine because there is not a default FMS - yet have no clue how flexible and fantastic and instrument is the default FS9 GPS. So you can't punch in an automatic code for a STAR - you actually have to look at a chart and program it into the flight plan....The vast majority of people on this section of the forum don't even have a clue about software development. Asking for capabilities and features which should have been addressed directly to Microsoft/ ACES two years ago.Now is the time to be talking about FS11 wishes and capabilities - not FSX. It's too late.

I understand what you are saying and I happen to (mostly) agree. It's not implying that MS is ignoring the 'hardcore' simmer, rather that they spent the last 3 years focusing on expanding their user base and implementing features that can be used by the most number of people.Just from initial rumors it sounds like many of the features the more experienced users are interested in (such as ATC, etc.) have not been worked on much, and for me personally, I find that I'm not nearly as excited for this release as I was for FS2002. However, the fact that they will be releasing the SDK's with the release of FSX I think bodes well for those features which might be important to some users but not the customer base as a whole.

>>...and i'm not sure that you can make that observation with>any level of accuracy. My observation was that MS FS team has participated more publicly with the hardcore FS users than in the past. I don't see how such a factual statement can be disputed. ???Now, as to whether we see any of this interaction translated into the actual SIM...is another matter entirely, and I would share your concern. :)Rhett

No, he got your point perfectly.You just didn't get his.The people here are NOT "the" users, they're in fact an incredibly tiny minority.The vast majority doesn't want (what they think it) super realism, don't want to spend an hour sifting through checklists before they can start their engines, don't want to file a flightplan with ATC several days in advance and have a 50-50 chance of getting their slot denied.They just want to hop in and zoom around.

>My observation was that MS FS team has participated more>publicly with the hardcore FS users than in the past. I don't>see how such a factual statement can be disputed. ???Well, what you said was this... "and they have certainly paid much more attention to hardcore than in past versions, where there was little, if any involvement with the hardcore people." There appears not to be a whole lot of reference to public vs private in this statement... However if that was your intenet, I wholeheartedly agree. :-) I did take it in isolation to the previous two sentences as I did not catch the link.>>Now, as to whether we see any of this interaction translated>into the actual SIM...is another matter entirely, and I would>share your concern. :)>>>RhettCheers and here's to a successful launch of FSX.Chris Porter:-outtaPerthWestern Australia

I tend to agree with the general sentiment of this post and indeed several of the posts in this forum that imply that despite the survey and regular forum posts by FS team members, somehow the most devoted and loyal simmers will not have their innumerable wishes granted with the release of FSX (ooh, rescuing oil workers, gee thanks guys). However, unlike many other posters, I am neither shocked nor terribly upset by this. Why am I not shocked when so many others are aghast that ACES would not go to the ends of the earth to appease those of us who have been with them for years, if not since the beginning? Because Microsoft is a business. We all have some absurd sense of entitlement as if the development team owes us for supporting them. Wrong. Their sole loyalty is to Microsoft and by association to the almighty dollar. FSX, like every game before it, has been designed to sell product. If you don't make a profit, then the game is finished, end of story. Now somewhere along the line the team decided they could sell more copies by making the game prettier and giving people a more overt and immediate sense of accomplishment (i.e. missions), rather than attending to the minute details involved in creating a more realistic aviation simulator (ATC, AI, flight model, and procedural improvements). And for the life of me, I can't disagree with them. I make the point that has been made several times before: we, the "hardcore" simmers, will always be here to gobble up the next incremental improvement of a flawed program blindly hoping that some of our wishes will be granted, but to create a user base capable of making the game profitable, our wishes will repeatedly be pushed to the back burner in favor of eye candy and other features we never asked for.Now for why I am not upset. First, these changes, though perhaps not a priority for many of us, ensure the survival of FS. If ACES had simply addressed every reasonable request on these forums and ignored the deficiencies in ground and aircraft texturing, how many people would buy it? Far from enough to sustain the product. But surely with the new eye candy, our sim can go on to future generations and perhaps one day we will see the implementation of the features we long for. Secondly, unlike some others who are not as excited for this version as for some previous ones, I am very excited. Yes, realism is good flight characteristics and proper ATC interaction, but realism is also looking out the window and seeing a world that could almost pass for our own. It is scenery that more closely represents the variety and detail experienced during real flight. For that reason, I think we all have a great deal to look forward to this holiday season. Perhaps I've been playing a little too much San Andreas lately but I for one can't wait to see how many birds I can take out with my prop. This is going to be a fun game if nothing else.Finally, I'd like to say a word to those out there who say that "nobody knows what will actually be in the game" and who still maintain some hope that when the game is shipped all our worries will be washed away. Good for you. Ignorance is bliss after all. But after months of hopeful speculation and the most common words from ACES members being "no sorry, not this time, maybe in the next version" I find it hard to believe much has been done to the heart of the sim. I am a man of science and to me, the evidence is just not there. However, as I have said, this is no reason to have a negative outlook towards FSX. I have a feeling that once it comes out we will have forgotten everything we had asked for in the first place.Happy flying,Chris

Avsim is a cross-section of the user base, all types of users visit and read these forums so the Dev team was hopefully able to get an idea of what was desired by the entire community. Keep in mind also, that FS is a base, people Mod the original version via the SDK's and many of the features already have one or more quality add-ons such as ATC, aircraft, scenery etc, so if you upgrade the communication between the base product and the add-on developers, the add-on quaility should in theory also get better.Finally, considering many software companies do not allow an SDK to modify their product, I say thank you to MS for allowing this and now it seems promoting it. One could argue they do this because it saves them money or time, but I think that is a small part as it allows them to keep the product focused on a larger audience as opposed to other flight sim products such as AS2 which concentrate on a particular aspect of aviation. Having such a generalized product and a large add-on community in my opinion allows each user to customize the base product to as close to their needs as possible.Though this approach may not satisfy some, I do believe many users are happy with this arrangement as long as the base product continues to advance and remain open as I believe this next incarnation will do.Ian.

Avsim (or the online community as a whole) is hardly a cross section of the userbase as a whole.It represents mainly the hardcore users who want to turn FS into something it was originally never intended to be.It's more like a very tiny slice of the pie, right near the center where the ising is thickest and the cream the richest. That little red candied cherry there, that's the Avsim community.The majority never installs a single addon, doesn't even know it's possible.They buy it based on gaming magazine reviews and screenshots on the box, play it a few weeks or months, and then get bored and move on to Halo 123456 or Halflife 10.000.