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Wolfko

the eerie crash of helios airways flight 522

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thus far, the leading theory is that a sudden loss of cabin pressure and pilot unconsciousness were the cause. what makes this peculiar however is that: - the 737 pilots should have been able to bring the plane down from its cruising altitude. instead, it appears that the pilot was not in his seat, and the co-pilot was already unconscious. - none of the bodies found in the crash have been wearing their oxygen masks. although this could be explained by the fact that on-board emergency oxygen supply provides air for only 15 minutes.- F-16 pilots which got to within 100 meters of the plane did not observe any fogging/window misting, which is usually evident after/during a rapid decompression.if the plane did in fact depressurize rapidly (which seems to be the only viable explanation as to why the co-pilot "froze" in his seat), how come other passengers were seen struggling to regain control of the plane in the cockpit? if the plane was decompressed, a person would have no more than 15-30 seconds before falling unconscious.since the plane flew steadily, it's fairly safe to say it was on autopilot, and the reason that the struggling passengers couldn't regain control of it was because they did not know how to disengage the autopilot.the plane, a 737-31S was a new machine, first flown in 1997. however, in 2004, this very plane experienced a loss of cabin pressure, and 3 passengers were rushed to a hospital during a flight to warsaw. other passengers of helios airways have complained about air conditioning problems in the past as well.by the way, the sms which was supposebly sent from one of the passengers' cell phone on the plane "cousin farewell, we're freezing" was found to be a hoax. the man who claimed to have received it admitted to this, and was then arrested.i'd like to know what alternative theories anyone can postulate regarding the inconsistencies which led to this unusualy anomaly

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With 30 years of real flying under my belt, and having read my share of accident reports, my alternative theory is to wait until the investigation is complete. Public speculation often has a way of crossing the line from "speculation" and "theories" to "fact". Ultimately, the families of the victims deserve this.For example: "it appears that the pilot was not in his seat," could become: "the pilot was not in the cockpit". This is not to say that you have not stated some facts, however, every accident is a chain of events, often a very complex one, and hopefully the investigators, far better than us, will be in a position to piece together that chain.Yes, we all want to try to find answers as fast as possible, but I learned long ago that truth is often stranger than fiction, and it is best to let the investigators do their thing, and then tell us what actually happened.BTW, unless this 737 was different, a good push forward on the yoke will disengage the AP.Regards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...R_FORUM_LOU.jpg

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Lou you are absolutely right. Wait for the official report.By the way from your experience, how long does it usually take for these sort of reports to come out?Stelios

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I'm not Lou, but...It can take 2 years or more for the American NTSB to issue the final report for a major air carrier accident. However, the relevant facts uncovered by the investigation are usually made public within a few months, and they often hold public hearings, prior to publishing the final report, where the investigation process and probable cause are discussed.

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I'll agree with everyone over the concept of "hold the phone..."On the other hand, there are some things which just ain't right. You should remember those things whenever you weigh the facts.Cheers,bt

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They estimate 6-8 months for the report to come out.Also, I thought that a push of the yoke doesn't deactivate the AP, it only reverts to CWS.Regards,

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Those "things which just ain't right" are voiced by hearsay, hoaxes, and people drawing conclusions from incorrect and incomplete data who've neither the training nor the authority to make such statements.Wait for the official report, and THEN go launch your conspiracy theories about a great government coverup (which seems the usual outcome of any investigation).

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I didn't read his post that way at all, Stelios. He just said that it takes the NTSB (ie the Americans) about two years to publish a report, but he doesn't know how long it'll take the Greek equivalent agency. Maybe they're quicker, maybe they're slower... no-one over here is likely to know.Richard

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Excuse me, Stelios, please get the BIG chip off your shoulder real fast, I have many good friends who are Greek, and so was my ex-wife!I simply have no idea how long, and the "????????" is my way of saying I am clueless has to how long!Talk about "reading between the lines", no wonder many of us developers loath posting in the forums. We never know when someone will read something into what we are saying, and BAM! I expect an apology from you.Regards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...R_FORUM_LOU.jpg

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Hi Stelios,I don't think you owe anyone an apology.All you did was ask for a clarification of what he wrote. maybe if that developer was more clear in what he wrote, you would not have had to ask for a clarification.Grab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

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>Excuse me, Stelios, please get the BIG chip off your shoulder>real fast,>>Talk about "reading between the lines", no wonder many of us>developers loath posting in the forums. We never know when>someone will read something into what we are saying, and BAM!>>>I expect an apology from you.>An apology.... Please... If you loathe posting here, then don't post here. Go post at the other place that you keep bragging aboutHe didn't read into anything, he asked for your context of your own confusing quote.Maybe if you as a loathing developer were more clear in what you wrote, he would not have had to ask for a clarification.Instead you insult him by accusing him of having some chip on his shoulder.Apology... yeah Right. Maybe from you to him...Grab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

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Must be a boring afternoon for you, Joe. Let him defend himself, won't you? But in your defense the sweet, nuturing comment to Stelios was a nice touch...

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JoeWould you care to share with everyone else just exactly what your grudge is with Lou?Jim

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Guys, that's just Joe being Joe.I very clearly understood what Lou had said. Not knowing the procedure in Greece, makes it any body's guess as to how long it could take to get any investigation and reporting done. Nothing more, nothing less.Darrell

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>Those "things which just ain't right" are voiced by hearsay,>hoaxes, and people drawing conclusions from incorrect and>incomplete data who've neither the training nor the authority>to make such statements.>>Wait for the official report, and THEN go launch your>conspiracy theories about a great government coverup (which>seems the usual outcome of any investigation).I may not be an authority, but I've had a little bit of training. If I was investigating this event, which I am not, but if i was, my first question would be "Was the crew O2 bottle turned on?" The typical 1800psi O2 bottles fitted in the flightdeck to supply the pilot's oxygen masks are of a design that can be technically described as "lousy". The main problem with them is the design of the on/off knob. They are very difficult to tell whether the bottle is actually turned on or turned off. The detent for the on position is very very slight, and very difficult to tell whether the knob is in the proper on position or not. Also, some bottles are designed such that the action to open the knob is a clockwise turn while the action to close the knob is a counterclockwise turn. Opposite of all other twist knobs used in the civilized world. And when closed, you can still even rest it in the "on" detent. Ha ha. Though pilots test the crew O2 system before flight, that does not mean anything. The testing action only briefly expels a small amount of oxygen through the mask momentarily. Even if the O2 bottle is turned off, there can be enough O2 trapped in the line that you can obtain many successful O2 tests. Even if the O2 bottle has an idiot proof knob that just twists on or twist off like a regular 20oz bottle of Pepsi, the bottle is placed out of the way and is usually not part of the preflight check of most pilots.Just like tech support should always ask the caller whether the computer is plugged in and turned on, the investigators should probably start by asking whether the O2 was plugged in and turned on also.

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>Guys, that's just Joe being Joe.>>I very clearly understood what Lou had said. Not knowing the>procedure in Greece, makes it any body's guess as to how long>it could take to get any investigation and reporting done. >Nothing more, nothing less.>Me too.....Joe's response caught me by surprise; but not really I suppose! He just doesn't think much of payware, and apparently anyone connected with it. I like payware, this place, the "other" place; and by all means, if Joe wants apologies to take place, then he, may start by apologizing to Lou! ;( L.Adamsonedit: add the word "he"

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jeroen...I see. In the world according to jeroen, it is a conspiracy theory to say, "wait for the facts, then to weigh them.""I'll agree with everyone over the concept of "hold the phone..."On the other hand, there are some things which just ain't right. You should remember those things whenever you weigh the facts."Thank you for your opinion jeroenbtPS...You say only qualified folks should speak to such esoteric topics as aviation. I am qualified to speak to this. I have an extensive background in aviation, computers and safety. I'll be happy to share my credentials with you at any time.PPS...I've been "flight simmin" forever

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How ya' doin', Larry? You finish that Vans RV7 yet? Getting up in the Dakota tomorrow, taking one of my partners from CDW to BVY, and dodging all the TFR's along the way! All this laser testing they're doing in that area. Last time I saw a photo of the RV7 in your garage, you had monitors in front of it with FS on them. C'mon, ya' gotta finish it, then fly out to see me! Find a place to put those wings on, will ya'!Regards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...R_FORUM_LOU.jpg

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Lou,They didn't have the "7" when I started mine! :D It's a 6A, and I'll "swear" that it's going to be painted..........in a month or two.....maybe! :)P.S. --- Throw a Garmin 396 in your Dakota & the TFR's, along with boundaries will show up in real time, using XM Satellite weather. You can easily afford it!:( Just noticed that we have a "big one" coming up for Monday. The AOPA notification say's that President Bush is coming to town.L.Adamson

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LouI didn't mean to offend you I just thought that you were implying that in Greece they are too slow.I got it wrong then. I always have a great respect for you.Stelios

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Lou's background is Italian - an we all know how long such investiagtions usually take in Italy! ;-)Wolfgang

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Yup, I got that notification too. Good thing I wasn't planning to go anywhere Monday...

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Are you implying Wolfgang that in Italy they are too slow in publishing aircraft accident reports? Are you basing this from facts?That's now my new "boiler plate" response! :-lolJust kidding, Wolfgang! ;-)Aw' right, enough of this, got to go plan a real flight, and it looks like an IFR one too. Oh, while my Garmin 430 does not have weather, the Strike Finder does a real nice job. So, I think I'll hold off on the 396 for now. However, I hear Larry is going to put a G1000 into his Vans! ;-)Regards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...R_FORUM_LOU.jpg

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