Hardest thing I've ever done in flight sim

[Wink207 78]

Hi All:

Well, it's been a long winter and, as usual, I begin getting bored with simming as Spring approaches. I've been at this since around 1997, BTW. So this year I decided I would learn how to fly a helicopter, in FSX of course. So I went out and bought a book on helicopters, then purchased an add on bird from a developed who has a good reputation, so I assume this is a good representative model. I read all the docs, then installed the aircraft and worked myself up to the point where I could go through the checklist, start her up, and off I go. I found that getting in the air wasn't too hard but keeping her in the air was a different story entirely!! The aircraft seems incredibly unstable. We all know how fixed wing aircraft, even large passenger aircraft, will be stable and smooth once they are trimmed and power set appropriately. Well, to me helicopters are the antithesis of that behavior. She will not trim, will not maintain altitude or attitude, and seems incredibly unstable. I cannot take my eyes off the instruments for a second (VMC mind you), or the aircraft banks or descends on its own.  And no autopilot. So after a few flights I can fly the thing now reasonably well so I can get where I am going, but forget landing. I cannot master landing the thing. I basically slow down, set the torque, and try to set her down gently. It just doesn't work. The bird is incredibly wind sensitive, then when I try to flare, I end up going backwards!! Do you guys think my add on is faulty, or are they all this hard to fly?

Thanks

Rick

[HighBypass 2,339]

Helicopters have to be persuaded to go in the direction you want to go, with the possible exception of down lol!

I haven't flown my RC helicopters in a while (CAA shenanigans and all that...), but unlike the model glider I used to have, which could be trimmed to fly straight an level, as you allude to regarding the full size airliners, the helicopter may only achieve a "zen" moment of a couple of seconds before needing to be persuaded what to do again. You cannot look away from it for a few seconds as it will probably end up in the floor or coming back at you all "spinny, angry death!"

I have no experience of flying a full size heli, but the principles are similar, but with the added input from the seat of your pants rather than just visual feedback.

 

EDIT: what peripherals do you have for the sim? Joystick and pedals? I can certainly recommend both, especially for simming with a helicopter. - the tail rotor demands input against the torque of the main rotor almost all the time. Granted the input will vary depending upon where you are in the flight regime, but you almost always require some "pedal". 

Hopefully more seasoned heli simmers and real heli pilots will chime in with their experiences and recommendations.

Edited February 26, 2020 by HighBypass

[Wink207 78]

1 hour ago, HighBypass said:

Helicopters have to be persuaded to go in the direction you want to go, with the possible exception of down lol!

I haven't flown my RC helicopters in a while (CAA shenanigans and all that...), but unlike the model glider I used to have, which could be trimmed to fly straight an level, as you allude to regarding the full size airliners, the helicopter may only achieve a "zen" moment of a couple of seconds before needing to be persuaded what to do again. You cannot look away from it for a few seconds as it will probably end up in the floor or coming back at you all "spinny, angry death!"

I have no experience of flying a full size heli, but the principles are similar, but with the added input from the seat of your pants rather than just visual feedback.

 

EDIT: what peripherals do you have for the sim? Joystick and pedals? I can certainly recommend both, especially for simming with a helicopter. - the tail rotor demands input against the torque of the main rotor almost all the time. Granted the input will vary depending upon where you are in the flight regime, but you almost always require some "pedal". 

Hopefully more seasoned heli simmers and real heli pilots will chime in with their experiences and recommendations.

Hi Mark:

Thank you for chiming in. I love your comment "...the helicopter may only achieve a "zen" moment of a couple of seconds before needing to be persuaded what to do again.." . That is perfectly descriptive of the situation I've encountered. And the normal instrument I scan, the artificial horizon, is not helpful because the airframe is nose down in normal flight, so I end up scanning the analog altimeter to maintain stability. So I can check wings level on the AH but not pitch stability. and she requires continuous control input to maintain heading and altitude.

And yes I really do need a proper cyclic, a joystick, as you say. I have pedals so I can use the tail rotor for rotation, but I am using my yoke as the cyclic and my normal throttles for the collective.

I have watched a number of youtubes on helis and the pilots do everything very smoothly until, I guess, they don't.

Well, I was looking for a challenge.

Any more tips appreciated.

Thanks

Rick

[Chock 17,769]

Helicopters are pretty hard to learn how to fly and most conventional ones (i.e. with one main rotor and a tail rotor) will not really let you let up on constantly correcting them, but that is not as hard as it might at first seem. Think of it like this: When you first learn to drive a car, that's quite hard too; you have to learn how to use the clutch pedal in conjunction with the throttle pedal, then time when the revs are just right for you to de-clutch to engage a gear, then you have to get used to how much you need to turn the wheel to steer where you want to go, and so on. But after a while it becomes intuitive; i.e. you don't approach a corner and think 'I must turn the wheel 18 degrees' or whatever, you instead begin turning the wheel, observe how much the car is turning, and then feed in more or less turn to zero in on exactly the correct amount to turn the wheel to negotiate the turn.

The same is true with helicopter control inputs. After a while you begin to get a feel for making tiny corrections to the course of the thing to keep it where you want it to be going, instead of over-reacting to the thing when it has got away from you. But it takes time and practice. Learning to hover a chopper has been likened to trying to balance on a ping pong ball.

That said, some things which will definitely help are:

Forget the desire for pretty scenery: Turn down your graphics settings to ensure you have a very good frame rate, because any lag in the visuals will make your control inputs be too late, and that's something which will make learning good control with subtle inputs nigh on impossible if your sim isn't running smoothly.

Choose your controller options carefully: As I am sure you are aware, a chopper has four main control inputs which affect what it will do: The cyclic, which controls direction and speed by basically redirecting some of the rotor's upward lift component off on a sideways vector. The pedals, which either counter or add to the opposite rotation of the helicopter body to the main rotor, by increasing or decreasing the thrust generated by the tail rotor. The collective pitch lever, which as its name implies, collectively allows you to control both the pitch of the rotor blades as well as to control the rotational speed of the blades too. So that one does two things. These controls do not translate well to a typical joystick and throttle controller set up, but I'll tell you what does and which is cheap too, and that's a playstation-style controller with two thumb joysticks. With one of those, you can assign one thumbstick to be the cyclic and you can assign the other thumbstick to be the collective pitch lever, by using one axis for pitch and the other for power, which you can easily mix. If you then add some rudder pedals, you are in business. If you don't have any rudder pedals, it is possible to use the finger buttons on the front of the playstation-style controller to work the tail rotor, which is less than ideal but can be made to work with a bit of effort, or you can use the autorudder function in FSX. You can pick up a playstation-style controller for PC for about 20 quid.

Get to de choppaaar!: There are many add-on helicopter for FSX, and they vary from those which are as realistic as they can be made to be, to those which are fairly forgiving. So it's worth considering if you want to go super real and suffer some potential frustration which would probably ultimately be rewarded in exchange for some perseverance, or whether you want something which compromises a little bit but makes for an enjoyable experience that doesn't take an age to perfect. There is no shame in going for the latter option, because in a flight sim on a computer monitor and with no seat of the pants feel either, you do not have the peripheral vision and motion inputs you have in a real chopper which massively aid in controlling it.

So, here's my pick of ones to go for...

Nice and easy to fly, but still able to be thrown about a lot and flown in a satisfying and convincing manner: The Nemeth Designs MD 500 Defender.

About as realistic as you're going to find for FSX and (thankfully) soon to be available for P3D too and hopefully one day for the new MS sim as well: The Dodosim Bell 206 'Jetranger'.

Easy on frame rates and with a spectacular forward view (which helps a lot with controlling it) in addition to being pretty forgiving to fly: The Flysimware Bell 47G.

Guaranteed to make a computer struggle graphically if it's not up to the task of running fancy stuff, but definitely a baddass looking chopper and equipped with a loads of fancy avionics to assist with flying it. The Nemeth Designs MIL Mi-35 Super Hind.

No chopper list is complete without a Huey. There are lots of them around for FSX, but the best one is this: MILVIZ UH-1 Redux.

You can find other choppers which are good choices too, and I'm sure people will be along to recommend their own favourites, but those above are my recommendations.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Chock

[RichieFly 737]

There are many differences between fixed wing and rotorcraft. More differences than there are similarities.

I would suggest beginning with understanding the different flight phases in helis. These are not similar to fixed wing aircraft. For example, the initial liftoff is maintaining directional (yaw) and not moving left and right, to and frowe (is this a word?). Liftoff and maintain a steady position. Learning this maneuver alone should keep you busy for some hours. Next is translating to forward flight. And, so on. Look for information on-line and what is included with some helicopters.

Now, the bad news. P3D and FSX and not good at all in the helicopter sense. Just don't even bother. DCS World and X-Plane are my go-to platforms for rotorcraft fun. (DCS is having a 4-pack helicopter sale right now. I've been having a blast with the newly updated KA-50.)

My primary tips would be well adjusted controllers and keep you eye on the horizon or out ahead of you, on a fixed object. By looking outside the aircraft, you can more easily judge your relative motion of you aircraft. Oh, and practice and understand this is a whole new animal. A challenge it is, but a very rewarding one.

[C2615 322]

Reminds me when I starting to learn to fly helicoptors back in FS9...

It is also that time, I start to fly aerobatic formation in Lock-on, and I find that's extremely helpful....

After I move my joystick to left hand, My helo time decreases a lot, but still I fly it now and then with left hand...not really that good as with right hand...

I still managed to build, lunch and fly some helos on Duna and Laythe in KSP recently.... fun stuff.

[188AHC 2,138]

The 206 in FSX is poorly modeled to start with so it is even more difficult to operate properly. 

The main thing you need to learn is to use tiny cyclic and rudder inputs. Major movements will have you chasing the chopper. 

Gentle and slow is the key to learning rotor craft. 

[Freo 83]

Helicopters !

-a heap of spinning metal fatigue surrounded by an oil leak on the way to a crash site

[overspeed3 410]

Slightly off-topic, but apropos:

According to news reports, Kobe would only fly in a copter piloted by the guy who crashed in the fog.  No doubt the guy was probably an ace in flying helicopters, but got caught-up in a pea soup situation.

Also in a recent news article, he was once sited by the FAA for getting jammed-up in a previous weather situation by preceding to fly into it without checking conditions.  Hmmm...  

[n4gix 4,949]

14 hours ago, 188AHC said:

The main thing you need to learn is to use tiny cyclic and rudder inputs. Major movements will have you chasing the chopper. 

I've mentioned several times over the past two decades a suggestion to try what I did successfully...

Take any inexpensive joystick and mount it securely to a 2'x2' 3/4" piece of wood. This will provide a solid base for the cyclic when placed on the floor.

Drill and secure either a yard stick* or a length of 1/2" PVC pipe to the joystick's grip. If you use the PVC pipe, you can then slip a bicycle grip onto the top end for comfort.

The result is that you have much finer control over the cyclic with far less effort to control the helicopter.

To date, not one person that I'm aware of has taken up my suggestion, or at least has never replied to my posts.

* I suggested a yard stick as a temporary trial to see if it helps you.

[Wink207 78]

14 hours ago, overspeed3 said:

Slightly off-topic, but apropos:

According to news reports, Kobe would only fly in a copter piloted by the guy who crashed in the fog.  No doubt the guy was probably an ace in flying helicopters, but got caught-up in a pea soup situation.

Also in a recent news article, he was once sited by the FAA for getting jammed-up in a previous weather situation by preceding to fly into it without checking conditions.  Hmmm...  

Actually, that accident is what piqued my interest in helicopters. It was so tragic but yet so improbable to a guy like me who knew nothing about the type, I was motivated to research the entire subject of helos. Now after much reading, watching videos of RW flying, and my initial experimenting with FSX (VMC only), I do begin to understand how even an experienced pilot flying alone in those conditions with that terrain, could get behind the aircraft, which seems to be what indeed happened.

[Wink207 78]

20 hours ago, Chock said:

Helicopters are pretty hard to learn how to fly and most conventional ones (i.e. with one main rotor and a tail rotor) will not really let you let up on constantly correcting them, but that is not as hard as it might at first seem. Think of it like this: When you first learn to drive a car, that's quite hard too; you have to learn how to use the clutch pedal in conjunction with the throttle pedal, then time when the revs are just right for you to de-clutch to engage a gear, then you have to get used to how much you need to turn the wheel to steer where you want to go, and so on. But after a while it becomes intuitive; i.e. you don't approach a corner and think 'I must turn the wheel 18 degrees' or whatever, you instead begin turning the wheel, observe how much the car is turning, and then feed in more or less turn to zero in on exactly the correct amount to turn the wheel to negotiate the turn.

 

Hi Allan:

Thank you for such a comprehensive response. I'm about to purchase the Dodosim 206. Perusing their web page and various reviews, it looks like that is the one for me right now. The aircraft I have been experimenting with is a Nemeth Sikorsky. Nice textures and lots of well documented buttons and switches. It seems to exhibit heli type weird behavior in pitch and yaw, but I really need the best one I can find to enrich the experience. Your automobile analogy is indeed excellent. After I reviewed all the required control inputs to keep my 4 speed manual auto shiny side up, it occurred to me that I should be able to learn the heli paradigm. Of course there is the 3rd dimension mostly absent from auto travel.

On the controls I have Saitek yoke, pedals, and quadrant. I am using the yoke temporarily as the cyclic, pedals as same, and throttles on the quadrant for the collective. The throttle movement does cause the collective animation to move up and down, but I am unsure as to whether the flight model receives and applies both rotor pitch and throttle input to the engines from the quadrant. Watching from the outside view, the rotor plane does seem to pitch down slightly with throttle input, but the individual pitch of the blades is impossible to discern. Come to think of it though one would think that so long as the hydraulics are up, collective input with the engines off might move the rotor blades...hmmm. I was under the impression that the cyclic input changes the orientation of the rotor blade plane to fly the aircraft up and down and in banks?

Regards,

Rick

Edited February 27, 2020 by 188AHC
Pruned long quote

[Wink207 78]

20 hours ago, RichieFly said:

There are many differences between fixed wing and rotorcraft. More differences than there are similarities.

I would suggest beginning with understanding the different flight phases in helis. These are not similar to fixed wing aircraft. For example, the initial liftoff is maintaining directional (yaw) and not moving left and right, to and frowe (is this a word?). Liftoff and maintain a steady position. Learning this maneuver alone should keep you busy for some hours. Next is translating to forward flight. And, so on. Look for information on-line and what is included with some helicopters.

Now, the bad news. P3D and FSX and not good at all in the helicopter sense. Just don't even bother. DCS World and X-Plane are my go-to platforms for rotorcraft fun. (DCS is having a 4-pack helicopter sale right now. I've been having a blast with the newly updated KA-50.)

My primary tips would be well adjusted controllers and keep you eye on the horizon or out ahead of you, on a fixed object. By looking outside the aircraft, you can more easily judge your relative motion of you aircraft. Oh, and practice and understand this is a whole new animal. A challenge it is, but a very rewarding one.

Hi Richard

Thank you for your response. I did pick up on the notion of fixing an eyepoint off ahead to help maintain directional stability. Biggest problem I have been having in level flight is just maintaining a chosen altitude, like 2000 ft. The helo wanders endlessly as I can't find where there is a trim function. It just seems unstable, which also causes airspeed to vary more than I like. And as I said earlier, the artificial horizon instrument is of marginal usefulness as the aircraft flies nose down by a disturbing amount.....!

Rick

[Wink207 78]

2 hours ago, n4gix said:

I've mentioned several times over the past two decades a suggestion to try what I did successfully...

Take any inexpensive joystick and mount it securely to a 2'x2' 3/4" piece of wood. This will provide a solid base for the cyclic when placed on the floor.

Drill and secure either a yard stick* or a length of 1/2" PVC pipe to the joystick's grip. If you use the PVC pipe, you can then slip a bicycle grip onto the top end for comfort.

The result is that you have much finer control over the cyclic with far less effort to control the helicopter.

To date, not one person that I'm aware of has taken up my suggestion, or at least has never replied to my posts.

* I suggested a yard stick as a temporary trial to see if it helps you.

Hi Fr. Bill:

I like that idea!!! Since I will be buying a joystick, why not install as you suggest!!

Thanks

Rick

[Wink207 78]

15 hours ago, Freo said:

Helicopters !

-a heap of spinning metal fatigue surrounded by an oil leak on the way to a crash site

A friend of mine put 9000 hrs in fling wings (he refers to helos in general as "..the f---ers..") off aircraft carriers. He says that every possible catastrophic failure that could happen while he was flying, happened. He also likes to talk about how many times he got wet.....

Edited February 27, 2020 by Wink207