The Earth's digital twin

[WarpD 824]

7 hours ago, Dominique_K said:

I am French, no need for Google 😏.

I am not French... there was an absolute need for me to use Google as a comparison.

[orchestra_nl 931]

6 hours ago, Dominique_K said:

 I start to believe people who say  that MS is not only after a flight simulator but aims at building a more generic platform for  other mobility games and also other applications (tourism) .

That might be a good thing. If the data can be used for more that just MS Flightsimulator chances are that it keeps on getting better (-more accurate).

[Dominique_K 10,149]

6 hours ago, WarpD said:

I am not French... there was an absolute need for me to use Google as a comparison.

I am amazed how good Google has become over the last ten years for translating western languages. Not perfect but close most of the times. What is also amazing is that the service is free ! 

It didn’t do anything wrong. Only thing is how it translated étoffer by expand. Enrich or beef up is closer to the meaning IMO but thats nitpicking really.
 

[mp15 138]

18 hours ago, Dominique_K said:

I am amazed how good Google has become over the last ten years for translating western languages. Not perfect but close most of the times. What is also amazing is that the service is free ! 

 

That is how slavery-hubs work, It will still become even greater though that is pure machine learning.

[NZ255 309]

It is interesting how much more than flight simulation we expect in our flight simulators. I guess we’re just looking for an escape from the real world? 🙂

[Claviateur 789]

26 minutes ago, NZ255 said:

It is interesting how much more than flight simulation we expect in our flight simulators. I guess we’re just looking for an escape from the real world? 🙂

Well this is our first thought isn't it... But as I mentioned previously, if everything goes according to plans, the upcoming MSFS will give at last, the right definition and purpose to PC flight simulation.

This means a PC flight simulator is by definition not destined to simulate a specific type of flight or a particular type of aircraft or model but rather the broad flying experience in all its styles.

So I think for the first time a civilian PC flight simulator will be exactly what it should be... 

Edited April 27, 2020 by Claviateur

[LHookins 3,103]

49 minutes ago, NZ255 said:

It is interesting how much more than flight simulation we expect in our flight simulators. I guess we’re just looking for an escape from the real world? 🙂

Some of us want to do more than fly airliners. 🙂 

If you're flying low and slow or doing bush flying and landing somewhere besides a runway fairly often, having a bit more detail in the scenery is a Good Thing.  

Those of us who have aircraft requiring pre-flight inspections might want to get out and walk around the aircraft, and do it naturally.

If I could, for example, drive a car on country roads (or even in a city), or take a boat out on the harbor or up a river, so much the better.  Sometimes I want to explore something that isn't accessible by aircraft.  Or I may want to land my aircraft on one of those roads or that river.

Digital twin of Earth?  Well, it's ambitious, but I like the idea.

Hook

[Dominique_K 10,149]

On 4/25/2020 at 8:58 PM, Claviateur said:

 Yet, these users were never served well in terms of an out of the box World Engine that offers to them the proper immersion in the low, slow, urban or exotic type of flights.  

What Asobo brings us is a continuation of a trend not a rupture.

Since the late 90s, there was no dearth of excellent sceneries for flying small aircraft in rural and bush settings. A Brit named Richard Goldstein gave the impulsion, I think, with small moody PNW airports like Darrington or Orcas long before Orbx. Another guy named Todd Klaus designed a tool called Terrascene to integrate USGS datasets in Fly!. Orbx themselves, in the last 12 years, has put on the market convincing regional sceneries with scores of small airports and dirt  strips.  And, of course, there was Flight Unlimited. Exotic ?  I have had a ball, these recent years, flying in the PNG augmented by Orbx sceneries and their Global set. Or in the Samoas. Or in Alaska which is kind of exotic for an European 😉 !

But the limitations of the MS FS engine which became more and more apparent (terrain made for LC data and texture/mesh resolution etc.) on one side and the Orbx business model now focused on cash cow regions have rarefied the offer. 

What Asobo brings to a long time MS FS user like me is  the smart use of new technologies including the enhanced orthos and expand my sim, at last !, to the whole world with a good base scenery 🤞🤞. 

I look with curiosity and sympathy at this digital twin concept. However I wouldn't want it to be something  done at the expense of the flight simulation proper. At the end of day, I am interested by a convincingly thrilling flight, bad weather, tricky approaches, unexpected ATC instructions etc. rather than by the walk that I can have afterwards to have a chat with the girl at the HBO counter or having a walk to visit the local landmark. 

In any case, if Asobo is on such an ambitious and long term project, I do not see MS financing it without the legitimate goal of using for other apps. 

 

[Ron Attwood 3,465]

23 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

long before Orbx.

Are you saying there was life before Orbx? Crikey!

[Claviateur 789]

1 hour ago, Dominique_K said:

What Asobo brings us is a continuation of a trend not a rupture.

Since the late 90s, there was no dearth of excellent sceneries for flying small aircraft in rural and bush settings. A Brit named Richard Goldstein gave the impulsion, I think, with small moody PNW airports like Darrington or Orcas long before Orbx. Another guy named Todd Klaus designed a tool called Terrascene to integrate USGS datasets in Fly!. Orbx themselves, in the last 12 years, has put on the market convincing regional sceneries with scores of small airports and dirt  strips.  And, of course, there was Flight Unlimited. Exotic ?  I have had a ball, these recent years, flying in the PNG augmented by Orbx sceneries and their Global set. Or in the Samoas. Or in Alaska which is kind of exotic for an European 😉 !

But the limitations of the MS FS engine which became more and more apparent (terrain made for LC data and texture/mesh resolution etc.) on one side and the Orbx business model now focused on cash cow regions have rarefied the offer. 

What Asobo brings to a long time MS FS user like me is  the smart use of new technologies including the enhanced orthos and expand my sim, at last !, to the whole world with a good base scenery 🤞🤞. 

I look with curiosity and sympathy at this digital twin concept. However I wouldn't want it to be something  done at the expense of the flight simulation proper. At the end of day, I am interested by a convincingly thrilling flight, bad weather, tricky approaches, unexpected ATC instructions etc. rather than by the walk that I can have afterwards to have a chat with the girl at the HBO counter or having a walk to visit the local landmark. 

In any case, if Asobo is on such an ambitious and long term project, I do not see MS financing it without the legitimate goal of using for other apps. 

 

All my respect to Orbx and all the other commercial or most importantly, freeware groups and designers who dedicated their free time to deliver quality addons over the years for ESP and then for XP...

However, I am not sure I agree that Asobo are continuing the trend, and for obvious reasons 🙂

It's not VFR scenery, It's a global VFR experience in a the whole world engine, right out the of the box. This is different from any actual VFR experience that is simply composed of patches of VFR areas and regions... 

Orbx or any developer, created wonderful VFR scenery but as you know, any scenery with any level of details was always limited in terms of coverage. And if you are lucky to have your area of interest as a VFR package, then you won the lottery even if sometimes you have to pay for the price 🙂

I think one can call these VFR "Theatres". Just like the DCS theaters for example, where details and realism happen, yet if you fly outside the perimeters of these theatres, the whole immersion and fun stop clean. For instance, I enjoy so much the Normandie scenery and mood in DCS, yet it's a sandbox... Nothing interesting happens outside of this sandboxd...  

Hence the VFR experience in ESP or XP is like these theatres... And let's admit it, only groups like Orbx have the budget and staff to produce regional VFR scenery (theatres) with rich immersion and details and then again, one pays for these VFR theaters... Then we have the freeware packages that make something interesting happen here or there and we need to download, install, set, troubleshoot, tweak etc... To enjoy a sandbox VFR experience.

Now we think from our own perspective but what about the continents on this planet that were never served well with any freeware or commercial VFR scenery/region/area. All these Exotic places on the virtual planet of ESP or XP, are not exotic at all... They just look like any other generic area... 

With MSFS, again, if everything happen according to plans, we would wake up one saturday morning and feel in the mood of exploring the Moroccan Sahara with a classic biplane, and the experience will be unique and immersive. The next saturday our mood take us to soar in the mountains of Thailand... The one just after we get the vibes of the Caribbeans... Etc...

And the best of all, if we decide to fly from these areas to any surrounding region, the VFR experience and immersion won't be put on Pause the time we reach that other "VFR theatre" as it is the case in the actual simulators...

 So I am not sure I agree Asobo are continuing the trend. This is not the same trend at all, MSFS is not a bland world with VFR theatres or patches of VFR lands. It's a global VFR world that is more than good enough, right out of the box, for general aviation, bush flying and helicopters

Edited April 27, 2020 by Claviateur

[ca_metal 2,025]

Like some people are saying around, MSFS2020 is more of a revolution than an evolution. They are setting new standards. The evolutions will come with the updates/new versions of the sim. 

Sure Orbx have their TrueEarth series, which are really great, but like Claviateur said, it's not on par with what Asobo is doing here. The A.I. makes a huge difference (Asobo can cover areas with no data), while Orbx relies on provider's data, MS/Asobo are creating their own on a Global level using their A.I. 

I would like to point also, if they really intend to stick to the project for 10 years, within due time they can do rescans with their A.I., because it can "learn" new tricks and improve even more the scenery.

[Claviateur 789]

1 minute ago, ca_metal said:

Like some people are saying around, MSFS2020 is more of a revolution than an evolution. They are setting new standards. The evolutions will come with the updates/new versions of the sim. 

Sure Orbx have their TrueEarth series, which are really great, but like Claviateur said, it's not on par with what Asobo is doing here. The A.I. makes a huge difference (Asobo can cover areas with no data), while Orbx relies on provider's data, MS/Asobo are creating their own on a Global level using their A.I. 

I would like to point also, if they really intend to stick to the project for 10 years, within due time they can do rescans with their A.I., because it can "learn" new tricks and improve even more the scenery.

Let's cross our fingers Azure AI is still scanning and fetching more footprint data for the rest of the continents. But even if it does not happen for R1, I believe a mix of Bing, OSM and procedural generation, as we saw in the Alpha screens, will make the default world immersive enough for all types of flights.

[ca_metal 2,025]

14 minutes ago, Claviateur said:

Let's cross our fingers Azure AI is still scanning and fetching more footprint data for the rest of the continents. But even if it does not happen for R1, I believe a mix of Bing, OSM and procedural generation, as we saw in the Alpha screens, will make the default world immersive enough for all types of flights.

I can't be sure about it (because I'm not in the Alpha and I have to rely on the screenshots), but I've tried to compare all the screenshots with OSM or Bing footprints and it seems the simulator has a way more comprehensive footprint data, which means (from my point of view) they are using extensively the A.I. capabilities to create their own footprints. But I can be wrong. 

The cons of this technique we all know, they need good aerial imagery to extract accurate footprints. Areas with a lot of shadows, clouds or low quality imagery will have less accurate data. 

Anyways, it will be a revolution for this hobby. Not being 100% perfect on the V1.0 doesn't turn it into a fail. Like I said before, if they really intend to stick with the project for 10 years (and maybe after that release new versions of it), they will have a lot of time to improve the scenery. Actually, not just the scenery, but the enviroment as a whole.

Edited April 27, 2020 by ca_metal

[Claviateur 789]

4 hours ago, ca_metal said:

I can't be sure about it (because I'm not in the Alpha and I have to rely on the screenshots), but I've tried to compare all the screenshots with OSM or Bing footprints and it seems the simulator has a way more comprehensive footprint data, which means (from my point of view) they are using extensively the A.I. capabilities to create their own footprints. But I can be wrong. 

The cons of this technique we all know, they need good aerial imagery to extract accurate footprints. Areas with a lot of shadows, clouds or low quality imagery will have less accurate data. 

Anyways, it will be a revolution for this hobby. Not being 100% perfect on the V1.0 doesn't turn it into a fail. Like I said before, if they really intend to stick with the project for 10 years (and maybe after that release new versions of it), they will have a lot of time to improve the scenery. Actually, not just the scenery, but the enviroment as a whole.

Good to know, my observations made me conclude that outside North America and Europe, there are places where data similar to OSM is being processed or purely procedural like the neighborhood of Tokyo...

But I agree, the AI must scan the highest res possible (Zoom level) in the Bing aerial database and this can still has as you said margins of error.

And yes you are right, all this is good enough for a first release because we have nothing like this for the whole world in a default scenery...

[Jonnoxx 53]

It seems that MS FS2020 has an assured future NOT because it is a Flight Simulator, but because it USEFULLY fits into a MUCH bigger project that MS is engaged in - a project that is truly mind-boggling in the sheer scale of its glorious ambition - the digital construction of an AUTHENTIC Planet Earth.

Here's the REAL reason why MS and Asobo have indicated they're in it for the long haul, and have mentioned a 10 year horizon.

A "Flight Simulator" in this overall context is just a small (but NOT unimportant!) bit-player, which is very useful both as as a testing tool, and as a very powerful PR stunt for the great unwashed.

Who can complain that us aviation enthusiasts get to derive a fantastic simulator as a mere side-benefit of this overall project?  Certainly, not me.

This project, when it comes to fruition (and it is ALREADY a MAJOR leap in all that has come before!)  is going to be recognised as an historical, epochal, landmark for the very survival of this Planet as we - and ALL the co-inhabitants of this ecosphere - have come to depend on it.

Check out this blog from MS and come to your own conclusions.  I think we are in for the ride of a lifetime!

https://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2020/04/15/a-healthy-society-requires-a-healthy-planet/

YESSSSS!!!!!  Bring it on MS and Asobo!

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Jonnoxx