8 minutes ago, Andreas Stangenes said:

Thank God for your great explanation, @Janov! I wish you could write that in the "To Asobo, if you are still reading" thread 🙂

Thanks for the nice words, Andreas.

To be fair I would have to add that "out of the box" X-Plane does also not quite bring the prerequisites to fly advanced RNP procedures in its default aircraft!

I am actually not certain how the default GPS/FMS depicts those - although the guy behind all things "nav/GPS/FMS", Philipp, is really on top of all developments and intricacies in that field. Probably more so than me, I am just a simple user, even in the real planes I fly 😉

The base for all those things is certainly incorporated in X-Plane...and I would think also in MSFS, it takes third party to really chisel it out, because the effort is deemed "too much for too little gain" by the devs of both simulators, I think (after all, only the geekest of us geeks really care about that stuff).

Here is a link to one of his writeups about navdata, just to show you how complex the field really is: https://developer.x-plane.com/article/navdata-in-x-plane-11/

Cheers, Jan

4 hours ago, Janov said:

So yes, technically you can fly IFR with a very basic set of instrumentation, but if you want to simulate the way that airliners and the more complex commercial aircraft operate you need the nav database, avionics and other required onboard equipment that allows to partake in the procedures used at the airports these aircraft operate to.

You are singling out a very specific set of IFR rules designed for a very specific set of aircraft.  And I have no doubt that the simulation does not properly simulate that subset of IFR.

That does not mean "you can't fly IFR" or "IFR is broken".  Especially when someone who comes on a topic and expresses interest in moving from VFR to IFR.  I can tell you right now, that if I got my private license and then started training for IFR, that the procedures that I would be used to get IFR certified would be simulated in the sim.  I'm pretty sure that the IFR procedures you're speaking of would be beyond the scope of a private pilot that gets IFR rated.  In fact, if I am not mistaken, the type of avionics and instrumentation you are speaking of isn't even required to get your Commerical Pilot's license.  So we're really talking about advanced IFR in the ATP realm.

So when you say that you can "technically fly IFR with a very basic set of instrumentation" you are basically excluding almost all the GA aircraft currently available as well as older commercial aircraft.  

There is no doubt that work needs to be able to accurately simulate the way airliners and "more complex commercial aircraft" operate in IFR and at major airports.   But to insinuate that "IFR IS BROKEN" as some others have done,  is intellectually dishonest.

And it certainly doesn't apply to someone who is asking about transitioning from VFR to IFR to tell them that MSFS isn't up to the task because the A320 or other commercial airliners aren't up to scratch.

I do appreciate your explanation because it does help define how narrow the scope is we're dealing with.  

I'm not a real pilot, so I might be talking out my behind.  But judging from the reaction of other real pilots on this forum, I'm pretty sure I'm not.

Edited October 29, 20205 yr by wthomas33065

1 hour ago, wthomas33065 said:

I do appreciate your explanation because it does help define how narrow the scope is we're dealing with.

Well - if you look at all flights happening daily worldwide (pre Corona) I am sure that the "narrow scope" I am talking about is quite certainly the vast majority 😉 - if you look at "miles flown" it will certainly be the overwhelming majority.

It´s kinda like making a flight simulator that does not simulate propulsion - and then say that it simulates flight just fine, because if you went out to do your glider license you could do that exact flying in that simulator.

If a "flight simulator" only simulates only certain aspects of flight that is fine - and often it is even detrimental to try and portray everything, because it means less depth to a certain subset. You can see this at work with MSFS - it excells in the area it chose to focus on - at the expense of other, deemed less important, areas. I actually applaud that and you can see the same thing happening in X-Plane: They decided to focus on the technical aspect of flying, putting less emphasis on the visual aspect. Two different approaches, two different target audiences. It would be nice to have both aspects fully fleshed out in one simulator, but we aren´t there yet.

I personally would like to see orbital and space-flight mechanics also represented, but neither MSFS nor X-Plane do that. I used to "play" Orbiter and KSP for that, but they lack in everything else 😉...again.

Cheers, Jan

11 minutes ago, Janov said:

Well - if you look at all flights happening daily worldwide (pre Corona) I am sure that the "narrow scope" I am talking about is quite certainly the vast majority 😉 - if you look at "miles flown" it will certainly be the overwhelming majority.

It´s kinda like making a flight simulator that does not simulate propulsion - and then say that it simulates flight just fine, because if you went out to do your glider license you could do that exact flying in that simulator.

Your last sentence above is not an applicable comparison, so I'm going to call you out on comparing IFR rules governing airliners with motorized flight.

If you go by "majority miles flown" then sure, your point is valid.  But you will also acknowledge that the majority miles flown, are flown by a minority of aircraft and minority of pilots, numbers wise.

Let's not forget that MSFS started out as a Cessna simulator.  Airliners weren't even added until 5 versions in, and it was a very simplified 737 with a circa 1970's autopilot at that.

This topic was about transitioning from VFR to IFR which inherently implies someone going from VFR GA to IFR GA.  So to inform that person that this sim has broken IFR because the IFR rules governing jet transports isn't fleshed out, isn't being exactly forthcoming.  

We can agree to disagree on this.
 

On 10/28/2020 at 5:28 PM, Malaromane said:

I, too, am eagerly awaiting your first impressions. I'm on the verge of pulling the trigger on this but I'd really like to see some reviews/user feedback first.

Sorry I just got sick of the vile negativity that characterises this whole forum.

I just popped in today to see what people were saying about the new release.

I won’t be coming back again.

I just bought this..I need  a refresher for NDB and VOR approaches.

 

I just hope they improve on this and add corrections when I deviate and also evaluation of how well one does these approaches. From the u-tube videos, I've seen, it looks like a good start.

Edited January 23, 20215 yr by Manny

The developer hangs out on the official forums https://forums.flightsimulator.com/u/choon172

The product is now sold also on Orbx but it is on sales only on pcaviator for 11.6 USD, a steal!

 

I have been trying to use this training for 2 days now.

I flew IFR mission 03 and I followed the instructions to the point where I was basically turning around I reset my yellow arrow and then I followed the flying course past the coast and out into the ocean ad-infinitum and nobody ever talked to me again. I was at 2000 feet and had been following all of the instructions. I did this twice in ended up at the same place.

Now I am in the middle of lesson number 4 or, having giving up on number three for the moment. I have reached the point in this mission where I was given the instructions to follow course and heading 130, which I am now doing, and now I am flying and flying and flying out into the ocean completely away from where I started. this cannot be right?

Considering one cannot pause this simulation, yes not for reasons that FS Academy are responsible for, the instructions come extremely quickly sometimes for one who is not versed in this equipment yet. Not to mention the fact that in both missions normally my pilot instructor would have said something to me to indicate that I am not following the right track or that I have not done the right thing and in this case or in both cases nothing like that has occurred.

 

I am not satisfied at this point. Has anyone else had such experiences or can anyone offer any advice? I cannot recommend this program yet.

 

 

3 hours ago, jonnieb57 said:

I have been trying to use this training for 2 days now.

I flew IFR mission 03 and I followed the instructions to the point where I was basically turning around I reset my yellow arrow and then I followed the flying course past the coast and out into the ocean ad-infinitum and nobody ever talked to me again. I was at 2000 feet and had been following all of the instructions. I did this twice in ended up at the same place.

Now I am in the middle of lesson number 4 or, having giving up on number three for the moment. I have reached the point in this mission where I was given the instructions to follow course and heading 130, which I am now doing, and now I am flying and flying and flying out into the ocean completely away from where I started. this cannot be right?

Considering one cannot pause this simulation, yes not for reasons that FS Academy are responsible for, the instructions come extremely quickly sometimes for one who is not versed in this equipment yet. Not to mention the fact that in both missions normally my pilot instructor would have said something to me to indicate that I am not following the right track or that I have not done the right thing and in this case or in both cases nothing like that has occurred.

 

I am not satisfied at this point. Has anyone else had such experiences or can anyone offer any advice? I cannot recommend this program yet.

 

 

I finished the whole IFR lesson package from  FS Academy.  So here are my suggestions (sorry, I don’t have the links right now but you can search it on your own):

1. Go search on YouTube for the videos of this IFR lesson package from FS Academy.  Watch the videos if you get stuck since the pilot in the video completed the lesson.  You can compare the location of the pilot in the video with your location and figure out why the voice for the lesson stops talking.

2. To search the official MS forum for the IFR lesson thread from FS Academy.  The developer of it hangs out there and often answers questions.

3. You need to be in the specified location range or else the voice will stop giving you directions.  This goes back to 1. where you can use the YouTube video of the completed lesson to figure out why you location is different from somebody else that completed the lesson. 

Edited April 3, 20215 yr by abrams_tank