SIDs out of Rhodes LGRP - why so convoluted?

[Ray Proudfoot 8,964]

I planned a flight from LGRP Rhodes to Istanbul Ataturk this morning. Westerly departure on Rwy 25 in a Lear 25.

I cannot see any good reason why I couldn’t turn right soon after departure and head north towards Turkey.

But the BANRO 3P SID has me flying west until 13DME from RDS before a 180° left turn back over RDS and then a 140° left turn before heading north away from Rhodes. My pax will be dizzy with all those turns! 😳

I appreciate this can be a busy airport in summer months but surely the departures could be better routed.

Comments appreciated especially from any pilots who may have flown to Rhodes in the real world.

[honanhal 1,420]

This almost certainly seems to be to avoid overflying the (very close) Turkish mainland. In reality there are no commercial flights from Rhodes to any Turkish destinations. The Greek islands off the coast of Turkey are hugely politically and historically sensitive within Turkey.

Curious if anyone has any knowledge of exactly what the issue is — whether Turkey actually won’t allow flights from Rhodes to overfly Turkey or if it’s a sort of voluntary avoidance on Greece’s part.

James

[Ray Proudfoot 8,964]

@honanhal, thanks. I've overlooked the friction between Greece and Turkey so that seems a plausible explanation. Maybe Turkey insists aircraft fly above a certain altitude before entering Turkish airspace. That would account for the torturous SID.

[JRBarrett 3,080]

Though it was long part of Greece in antiquity, Rhodes was part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire for almost 400 years, beginning in 1522. It was captured by Italian forces in 1912, and officially ceded to Italy in 1923 by Turkey. It remained under Italian (and later German) control until 1945, at which time it was surrendered to the British. It was only reunited with Greece in 1947, so I assume this is still a source of political tension between the two countries - (as is Cyprus, though the situation there is far more volatile).

[G550flyer 1,014]

Honanhal is on the money. SIDs will be based on terrain, traffic flow, borders and political bases. Another good example is Egypt and Israel. I would always have issues when flying from Cairo to Tel Aviv. Would always be delayed with issues with them accepting our clearance. Israel would have a preference for you to land some where else before entering the country.  

[Biggles2010 343]

1 hour ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

@honanhal, thanks. I've overlooked the friction between Greece and Turkey so that seems a plausible explanation. Maybe Turkey insists aircraft fly above a certain altitude before entering Turkish airspace. That would account for the torturous SID.

Certainly in the past there were no direct flight allowed from Greece to Turkey and vice versa. As part of our RAF commitment to NATO we used to operate from military bases in both countries, but could not fly directly between them. In fact, operations in either of these countries were always very sensitive and frequently disrupted by new restrictions being imposed. There was no evident co operation between Greece and Turkey, even within NATO. I think not much has changed since those days.

Edited January 30, 2021 by Biggles2010

[Ray Proudfoot 8,964]

@Biggles2010, two NATO countries that don't allow direct flights from the other country. Bizarre. But if I continued it would get into politics so I shall stop now. The answers have been very helpful so thanks to all.

Fortunately in P3D every country loves every other country so I shall give myself special clearance the next time I head north from Rhodes. 😁

[IanHarrison 522]

I was thinking that RC4 doesn't worry about politics. You can fly where you want.

[Dominique_K 10,150]

The continuous hostility between the two countries might be an issue, there are a lot of AFB in the region.

But it seems to me that there is also a simple technical explanation. The charts show that the G80 MEA is 11 000 feet and that RDS is the busy point of convergence of about 15 routes. The loop that annoys you, looks like a technical trick to help the aircraft climb to the MEA.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,964]

@Dominique_K, I think the proximity of Turkish airspace to Rhodes is a more believable reason. Airlines don't like using more fuel than necessary and that SID is a sheer waste of fuel. You're essentially going nowhere for over 30nm except upwards.

[jon b 2,050]

On a similar note, I’ve just flown into Lahore  Pakistan, which lies right next to the border with India.

The approach plate has the usual 25nm sector safe altitude circle around the airfield except that it’s been dissected and blanked out by the border and has the caveat sector safe only valid in Pakistan airspace.

In other words, there might be a 10,000 ft mountain just over there ...but if there is ,it’s got nothing to do with us 😆

Edited January 31, 2021 by jon b
Edited Islamabad to Lahore, right country wrong city..jet lag !

[LGAVLGKO 6]

19 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

@Biggles2010, two NATO countries that don't allow direct flights from the other country. Bizarre. But if I continued it would get into politics so I shall stop now. The answers have been very helpful so thanks to all.

Fortunately in P3D every country loves every other country so I shall give myself special clearance the next time I head north from Rhodes. 😁

That is not true. There are flights by Aegean from Athens to Izmir and Istambul, by Turkish ATH-IST sometimes with B777, and by Pegasus to Sabihah Gokcen. Those flights were daily before covid, but they are fewer now, not for political reasons but due to the pandemic. Politics don't influence business decisions in this case (at least for now).

Edited January 31, 2021 by LGAVLGKO

[Ray Proudfoot 8,964]

4 minutes ago, LGAVLGKO said:

That is not true. There are flights by Aegean from Athens to Izmir and Istambul, by Turkish ATH-IST sometimes with B777, and by Pegasus to Sabihah Gokcen. Those flights were daily before covid, but they are fewer now, not for political reasons but due to the pandemic. Politics don't influence business decisions in this case (at least for now).

Clearly there are different circumstances when we're going through a pandemic. My post was only in reply to someone else who said there were no direct flights. Thanks for clearing that up.

[LGAVLGKO 6]

23 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Clearly there are different circumstances when we're going through a pandemic. My post was only in reply to someone else who said there were no direct flights. Thanks for clearing that up.

You are welcome! 🙂

[Chock 17,769]

Greece and Turkey have been at odds for years, it goes all the way back to the ancient clashes of the Ottoman Empire and even before that, so the differences run deep culturally and this feeds into more modern concerns. It occasionally descends into skirmishes and it mainly centres on claims to the gas and mineral rights over some contested islands and their territorial waters. It's not helped by some partisan feelings toward the two nations from countries in Europe which have had traditional ties between them which date back to major conflicts including WW1 and WW2.

I myself fell foul of these tensions a few years ago when I was a writer at the Manchester Evening News and I did a piece in the paper's Holidays section on trips to a resort in the region. I got a ton of complaints over me having written that some place was a resort of one of these nations, since it was in a contested region, with people demanding retractions be printed and all sorts of stuff. Prior to this I had been largely unaware of how much trouble this could cause.

Because of these tensions between the two countries, aeroplanes tend to be routed along specific lanes so that there can be no accidental confusion over what might be detected as an incoming air raid and possibly engaged by radar guided missiles which operate beyond visual range. This is a genuine threat, as in recent times, both countries have postured in a very belligerent way and made it clear that they are not afraid to take their differences to a military level.

We only have to look at the several occasions where airliners have been shot down when they've accidentally been identified as incoming threats to warships and such in the Middle East and other sensitive areas to know that airliners can and sometimes are shot down. Both Russia and the US have shot down airliners under these circumstances, so it's not something which is just limited to the squabble between Turkey and Greece, this sort of danger is very real in quite a few places and although we tend to think of Turkey and Greece as fun holiday destinations, the situation between them is and always has been fairly serious.

I'd put money on the weird routing being to do with not just the direction aeroplanes fly in, but also including stuff to do with their national flag carrier airlines. But it's worth also bearing in mind that an often overlooked detail of the Cuban Missile Crisis, which as we know took us fairly close to the brink of a nuclear war, has its origins in the region too, since the placement of Soviet missiles in Cuba was a response to the US having placed missiles in Turkey, in order to put the Soviet Union in close range for a nuclear strike. Publicly, the Soviets backed down and pulled their missiles out of Cuba, allowing Kennedy bragging rights over the matter, but behind the scenes, part of that deal was that the US would also have to take their missiles out of Turkey, which they did do, but kept that part quiet. So that region really is a hotbed of international stuff.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Chock