1 hour ago, Bobsk8 said:

Name me one sim  that has default ATC that works well?

None, I've only found VoxATC to work for me really, and it's not available for MSFS yet

5 minutes ago, kevinfirth said:

None, I've only found VoxATC to work for me really, and it's not available for MSFS yet

Tried that one. Too many negatives for me, wearing a headset, limited voices, robotic sounding ATC. 

Been a PF3 user for years as well.  A little more involved with it's pre-flight setup but once set up it works very well and the voice sets are quite expansive.  Dave keeps updating it fairly frequently as well. 

8 minutes ago, psolk said:

Been a PF3 user for years as well.  A little more involved with it's pre-flight setup but once set up it works very well and the voice sets are quite expansive.  Dave keeps updating it fairly frequently as well. 

I use simbrief to load flight plan into MSFS and from there can find it in PF3. Then all I have to do is select start of STAR or end of SID, and I am ready to go. couple of minutes at most. I also use Avliasoft EFB, which makes it possible for me to use vertical guidance on all LNAV approaches in MSFS. It shows the vertical profile to landing with the aircraft superimposed on it. Works just as well as Lnav/V

Edited July 18, 20214 yr by Bobsk8

12 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

I use simbrief to load flight plan into MSFS and from there can find it in PF3. Then all I have to do is select start of STAR or end of SID, and I am ready to go. couple of minutes at most. I also use Avliasoft EFB, which makes it possible for me to use vertical guidance on all LNAV approaches in MSFS. It shows the vertical profile to landing with the aircraft superimposed on it. Works just as well as Lnav/V

Very similar but I usually like to adjust altitudes, define sid/star entry/exit points, designated parking (one time thing really) and I'm on my way.  Like you said a few minutes at best but there is a bit of setup that once you get the flow down is nothing more than part of your pre-flight.  

5 hours ago, psolk said:

They have surpassed 2M copies sold already I believe...

Also looks like Milviz has verified the data with their own business decision as well.   

This reminds me of a company I worked for in the early 2000's.  They had the only solution on the market for years and were dominating then Juniper Networks came along and did the same thing with some additional features, ease of use and offered it as a service.  It took about 12 months for our common stock to go underwater.  Now OBVIOUSLY LM is not going underwater LOL, they are a multi billion dollar entity BUT I would guess if P3D was a stand alone organization trying to compete with MSFS/Asobo right now they'd be seriously debating closing up shop.  There is just no revenue left for them. 

Who as a new FS consumer would choose to go to P3D, deal with the licensing, the thousands of $$$ in add-ons required, the affinity mask tweaking, the shaders, EA in its current state, waffle clouds that have to be tweaked out of the sim, the version compatibility issues all while MSFS is just chugging along and all I need is Steam, GamePass or an XBox?   I would say "maybe" 1 in 100 new consumers would choose P3D.  You know, the type that thinks MSFS is still too "arcade" for them and they need "realistic flight procedures."  Again, maybe 1/100 who desire functionality MSFS can't deliver or doesn't deliver to their liking but the revenue stream is dead unless they want to throw massive dev dollars at turning P3D into an MSFS which in all honesty is probably NOT what their commercial customers are asking for.  Who are they going to develop for, consumer market which has dwindled to nearly naught or commercial and when does the commercial dev become so price preventative that the consumer is dropped altogether?   

So Aerosoft, JustFlight, Milviz, and FSCrew are leaving P3D for MSFS.  PMDG alluded that they may stop new products for the P3D home consumer market, except for commercial products which they can make money from their commercial customers.  Unless P3D pulls a magic rabbit out of their hat by P3D version 6, I think that's it for P3D.  Some people may still keep P3D installed, but no rational 3rd party developer that wants to make a profit will release a new product for P3D.

5 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

no rational 3rd party developer that wants to make a profit will release a new product for P3D

Unless the costs of doing so are fairly minimal in porting it from MSFS, then it may be worth a punt.

Just now, kevinfirth said:

Unless the costs of doing so are fairly minimal in porting it from MSFS, then it may be worth a punt.

Yes, I agree with this.  Some scenery developers may find it very cheap to port to P3D from MSFS, and may do it, if there are still enough people buying for P3D.  It's the $$$ at the end of the day.  If a company can make an easy and substantial enough profit with minimal work, they may do it.  

7 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

Yes, I agree with this.  Some scenery developers may find it very cheap to port to P3D from MSFS, and may do it, if there are still enough people buying for P3D.  It's the $$$ at the end of the day.  If a company can make an easy and substantial enough profit with minimal work, they may do it.  

That would assume that P3D and MSFS are very similar, which I seriously doubt. 

The sceneries in P3D and MSFS are based on totally different methodologies. "Porting" from one to the other is not possible (or desirable, considering that MSFS is far advanced).

It is important to recognize that MSFS is a revolutionary flight sim project, not just another incremental advance that can somehow be used to improve older sims.

Edited July 18, 20214 yr by cobalt

31 minutes ago, cobalt said:

It is important to recognize that MSFS is a revolutionary flight sim project, not just another incremental advance

Oh please, it's still based on FSX, Asobo said that themselves. So, by definition it's still an evolutionary incremental sim, just some of the visuals are improved more than other branches of the ESP platform. Bear in mind it's been evolving in private before it was announced for several years, just because the extent of that evolution is apparently greater than we have been used to over the past 10 years to you doesn't mean it's revolutionary.  

1 hour ago, kevinfirth said:

Bear in mind it's been evolving in private before it was announced for several years, just because the extent of that evolution is apparently greater than we have been used to over the past 10 years to you doesn't mean it's revolutionary.  

The market says MSFS is “revolutionary” though because MSFS is already making one competing flight simulator obsolete, P3D (with respect to 3rd party developers), and may make the remaining competing flight simulator obsolete, XPlane (with respect to 3rd party developers).

Products that are an “incremental” improvement and priced similarly don’t make the competing products obsolete when they are introduced in the market.  There are 3 areas where MSFS is leaving its competitors in the dust:

1. Graphics.  MSFS uses modernized graphics whereas for me and many other people, P3D and X-Plane  with all the best add-ons still look like graphics from 10 years ago (as I understand it, X-Plane still uses 2D trees and it’s already 2021!).

2. Streaming of satellite/photogrammetry for the entire world, where the 2D satellite data has been massaged by Blackshark AI and converted to 3D objects,  And this service is not charged by Microsoft after you purchase your copy of MSFS, P3D and X-Plane does not have this service, even a paid version of this service.

3. The consumer does not have to purchase hundreds (or even more) of dollars or add-ons to make their simulator look good,  And the consumer doesn’t have to purchase an extra hard drive to store GBs of ortho. Thus, the average MSFS consumer can save on hundreds to thousands of dollars if they want to make the flight simulator look as good as possible,

These 3 areas are “revolutionary” improvement over its competitors.  Arguably, P3D and X-Plane need “revolutionary” improvement for P3D v 6 and X-Plane 12 because if they only have “incremental” improvement in their next major version release, it could be lights out for both simulators.

Edited July 18, 20214 yr by abrams_tank

1 hour ago, kevinfirth said:

Oh please, it's still based on FSX, Asobo said that themselves. So, by definition it's still an evolutionary incremental sim, just some of the visuals are improved more than other branches of the ESP platform. Bear in mind it's been evolving in private before it was announced for several years, just because the extent of that evolution is apparently greater than we have been used to over the past 10 years to you doesn't mean it's revolutionary.  

If scenery based on streaming satellite imagery of real landscapes (MSFS), vs. computer-drawn approximations (FSX, X-plane, P3D) is not revolutionary, then I don't know what is. Evolution, my foot.

Edited July 18, 20214 yr by cobalt

1 hour ago, abrams_tank said:

These 3 areas are “revolutionary” improvement over its competitors.

I think your numeration of areas where MSFS is far ahead is not complete! Consider these, where MSFS also lurches far ahead!:

4.) The way everything looks so much better.

5.) The graphics are way more advanced

6.) The scenery has a much better appearance

7.) The visuals are simply better than other simulators

8.) The way that cities look so much more lifelike

9.) The lighting engine is far better!

10.) Things look a lot more realistic.

11.) Last but not least - the depiction of the landscape is of a higher fidelity.

No need to be shy about mentioning all aspects, I think!

Now if only the users would understand this revolutionary aspect... I am sure most do, just the Steam users seem to be a little "challenged" in understanding this revolutionary achievement...yesterday was the Saturday with the lest concurrent users ever since MSFS was released about a year ago (less than 5.500). Don´t these guys get it??

https://steamcharts.com/app/1250410#6m

Well, I am sure as soon as it´s "lights out" for P3D and X-Plane, they will also see the light 🙂

Edited July 18, 20214 yr by Janov

10 minutes ago, Janov said:

Well, I am sure as soon as it´s "lights out" for P3D and X-Plane, they will also see the light 🙂

If you haven’t been paying attention, JustFlight, Milviz, and FSCrew have recently all said or implied they are stopping new products (new projects) for P3D, because the P3D market for new products has drastically shrunk.  This is on top of Aerosoft doing the same thing last year.  P3D, for the consumer home market is quickly becoming obsolete for 3rd party developers.  So yes, it is lights out for P3D soon for the consumer home market (ironically, P3D officially was never intended for the consumer home market).

X-Plane is not there yet but without “revolutionary” improvement by X-Plane 12, I forecast X-Plane will suffer the same fate P3D is suffering now within the next 2 years, for the consumer home PC market.

Edited July 18, 20214 yr by abrams_tank