XP12 system requirements

[mSparks 2,086]

11 hours ago, mjrhealth said:

is this a discussion or an argument

you quoted my personal experience as it pertains to the conversation. YMMV.

11 hours ago, mjrhealth said:

MSParks loves linux and hates windows we get it.

I generally hate computers with a passion, those "words developers use for computers" are not polite words of love and affection.

But they pay the bills, keep me in large yachts and helicopters and provide ample entertainment between. I dislike linux less, it is much more capable of keeping me in yachts and helicopters, and wastes less of my time on things that should "just work", YMMV.

11 hours ago, mjrhealth said:

but il never use it for fligt simming

XP11 and CSGO are my stress relief from day to day decisions that affect anywhere between 10s of thousands and hundreds of millions of people. Having them two keystrokes and 30 seconds away at any moment in time keeps me at least a little sane from that pressure.

I love XP11, its a testament to what can be achieved by a small group of people with a shared passion and a willingness to lead the crowd rather than follow it.

"yesterday I learnt it is wrong to say even newer intel gpus dont have vulkan drivers for XP12, the more precise issue is that even newer intel gpus do not have a recent enough vulkan driver for XP12"

You?

[mjrhealth 820]

Well tech pretty much just sucks. Our company spent millions on new transmitters, only to be told if you want latest firmware update it will cost you a little more. Our finance guy questioned life expectancy of new gear, used to be 30 years, now 15 if you are lucky. Its honesty getting beyond a joke, It was fun but now its just darn scary.

[Humpty 751]

6 minutes ago, mSparks said:

"yesterday I learnt it is wrong to say even newer intel gpus dont have vulkan drivers for XP12, the more precise issue is that even newer intel gpus do not have a recent enough vulkan driver for XP12"

You?

The problem with your statementa are that seems more cryptic for a user to understand which then leads to misunderstanding. You think everyone understands what you have written but that is misunderstood.

 

[mSparks 2,086]

21 minutes ago, Humpty said:

The problem with your statementa are that seems more cryptic for a user to understand which then leads to misunderstanding. You think everyone understands what you have written but that is misunderstood.

 

Im well aware communication is not one of my superpowers. Hence putting so much effort into autoatc so I could practice without paying €500 and hour or upsetting vatsim controllers.

[Humpty 751]

32 minutes ago, mSparks said:

Im well aware communication is not one of my superpowers. Hence putting so much effort into autoatc so I could practice without paying €500 and hour or upsetting vatsim controllers.

no problem

[jarmstro 2,402]

18 hours ago, Janov said:

I haven´t tried your 744 yet but may well do so

You can't. It only runs on Linux. Or so I assume.😀

[mSparks 2,086]

14 minutes ago, jarmstro said:

You can't. It only runs on Linux. Or so I assume.😀

its lin/win/mac compatible. When you build stuff right there is pretty much no overhead in supporting more than one platform, unfortunately generally end up limited by the lowest common denominator (leave it to the reader to guess which that is), but if people want to spend more time getting their OS to work right than fly and take pleasure from forced restarts at the behest of microsoft in the middle of a long haul flight I'm not one to stand in their way.

Adding mac support actually sold me on macos, for most of last year I was building the mac version of xtlua in a macos VM, but it was such a pleasure to use I finally dumped windows completely and went with a mac mini (which now takes some of the pain away when I am forced to use very badly written programs such as microsoft office that dont have lin support, and will get my XP11 licence when I can buy XP12)

[Greazer 1,320]

5 hours ago, mSparks said:

But they pay the bills, keep me in large yachts

Good luck powering linux on your multi million dollar luxury yacht to the Caribbean 🤢  I guess it's better there than the Desktop.  Oops guess you haven't read Major Linux Fails 2021

[Greazer 1,320]

• !! 30bit displays are unusable under Linux. Firefox is very slow, Google Chrome is broken, KDE doesn't work, Steam crashes, etc. etc. etc.
• !! High-refresh rate monitors are not properly supported as Firefox and Chrome sometimes default to 60Hz. At least Firefox has a workaround: you can set the desired refresh rate in about:config using layout.frame_rate.
• !! HDR is not supported.
• !! X.org has no means of providing a tear-free experience, it's only available if you're running a compositing window manager in the OpenGL mode with vsync-to-blank enabled.
• !! X.org is not multithreaded. Certain applications running intensive graphical operations can easily freeze your desktop (a simple easily reproducible example: run Adobe Photoshop 7.0 under Wine, open a big enough image and apply a sophisticated filter - see your graphical session die completely until Photoshop finishes its operation).
• !! Applications (or GUI toolkits) must implement their own font antialiasing
• !! Very incomplete hardware sensors support, for instance, HWiNFO64 detects and shows ten hardware sensor sources on my average desktop PC and over fifty sensors, whilst lm-sensors detect and present just four sources and twenty sensors. This situation is even worse on laptops - sometimes the only readings you get from lm-sensors are cpu cores' temperatures.
• !! Critical bug reports filed against the Linux kernel often get zero attention and may linger for years before being noticed and resolved. Posts to LKML oftentimes get lost if the respective developer is not attentive or is busy with his own life.
• !! There's no concept of drivers in Linux aside from proprietary drivers for NVIDIA/AMD GPUs which are separate packages
• !! There's no guarantee whatsoever that your system will (re)boot successfully after GRUB (bootloader) or kernel updates - sometimes even minor kernel updates break the boot proces
• !! LTS distros are unusable on the desktop because they poorly support or don't support new hardware
• !! Linux developers have a tendency to a) suppress news of security holes b) not notify the public when the said holes have been fixed c) miscategorize arbitrary code execution bugs as "possible denial of service"
• !! Most Linux distributions do not audit included packages which means a rogue evil application or a rogue evil patch can easily make it into most distros

 

Summary

• No stability, bugs, regressions, regressions and regressions: There's a large number of regressions (both in the kernel and in user space applications) when things which used to work break inexplicably; some of the regressions can even lead to data loss. Basically there is no quality control (QA/QC) nor regression testing in most Open Source projects (including the kernel) - Microsoft, for instance, reports that Windows 8 received 1,240,000,000 hours of testing whereas new kernel releases get, I guess, under 10,000 hours of testing - and every Linux kernel release is comparable to a new Windows version. Serious bugs which impede normal workflow can take years to be resolved. A lot of crucial hardware (e.g. GPUs, Wi-Fi cards) isn't properly supported. Often regressions are introduced in "stable" x.y.Z kernel releases even though Linux developers insist such releases must be upgraded to immidiately.
• Hardware issues: Under Linux many devices and device features are still poorly supported or not supported at all. Some hardware (e.g. Broadcom Wi-Fi adapters) cannot be used unless you already have a working Internet connection. New hardware often becomes supported months after introduction. Specialized software to manage devices like printers, scanners, cameras, webcams, audio players, smartphones, etc. almost always just doesn't exist - so you won't be able to fully control your new gadgets and update firmware. Linux graphics support is a big bloody mess because kernel/X.org APIs/ABIs constantly change and NVIDIA/Broadcom/etc. companies don't want to allocate extra resources and waste their money just to keep up with an insane rate of changes in the Open Source software.
• The lack of standardization, fragmentation, unwarranted & excessive variety, as well as no common direction or vision among different distros: Too many Linux distributions with incompatible and dissimilar configurations, packaging systems and incompatible libraries. Different distros employ totally different desktop environments, different graphical and console applications for configuring your computer settings. E.g. Debian-based distros oblige you to use the strictly text based `dpkg-reconfigure` utility for certain system-related maintenance tasks.
• The lack of cooperation between open source developers, and internal wars: There's no central body to organize the development of different parts of the open source stack which often leads to a situation where one project introduces changes which break other projects (this problem is also reflected in "Unstable APIs/ABIs" below). Even though the Open Source movement lacks manpower, different Linux distros find enough resources to fork projects (Gentoo developers are going to develop a udev alternative; a discord in ffmpeg which led to the emergence of libav; a situation around OpenOffice/LibreOffice; a new X.org/Wayland alternative - Mir) and to use their own solutions.
• A lot of rapid changes: Most Linux distros have very short upgrade/release cycles (as short as six months in some cases, or e.g. Arch which is a rolling distro, or Fedora which gets updated every six months), thus you are constantly bombarded with changes you don't expect or don't want. LTS (long term support) distros are in most cases unsuitable for the desktop user due to the policy of preserving application versions (and usually there's no officially approved way to install bleeding edge applications - please, don't remind me of PPAs and backports - these hacks are not officially supported, nor guaranteed to work). Another show-stopping problem for LTS distros is that LTS kernels often do not support new hardware.
• Unstable APIs/ABIs & the lack of real compatibility: It's very difficult to use old open and closed source software in new distros (in many cases it becomes impossible due to changes in core Linux components like kernel, GCC or glibc). Almost non-existent backwards compatibility makes it incredibly difficult and costly to create closed source applications for Linux distros. Open Source software which doesn't have active developers or maintainers gets simply dropped if its dependencies cannot be satisfied because older libraries have become obsolete and they are no longer available. For this reason for instance a lot of KDE3/Qt3 applications are not available in modern Linux distros even though alternatives do not exist. Developing drivers out of the main Linux kernel tree is an excruciating and expensive chore. There's no WinSxS equivalent for Linux - thus there's no simple way to install conflicting libraries. In 2015 Debian dropped support for Linux Standard Base (LSB). Viva, incompatibility!
• Software issues: Not that many native games (mostly Indies) and few native AAA games (Valve's efforts and collaboration with games developers have resulted in many recent games being released for Linux, however every year thousands of titles are still released for Windows exclusively^*. More than 98% of existing and upcoming AAA titles are still unavailable in Linux). No familiar Windows software, no Microsoft Office (LibreOffice still has major troubles correctly opening Microsoft Office produced documents), no native CIFS (simple to configure and use, as well as password protected and encrypted network file sharing) equivalent, no Active Directory or its featurewise equivalent.
• Money, enthusiasm, motivation and responsibility: I predicted years ago that FOSS developers would start drifting away from the platform as FOSS is no longer a playground, it requires substantial effort and time, i.e. the fun is over, developers want real money to get the really hard work done. FOSS development, which lacks financial backing, shows its fatigue and disillusionment. The FOSS platform after all requires financially motivated developers as underfunded projects start to wane and critical bugs stay open for years. One could say "Good riddance", but the problem is that oftentimes those dying projects have no alternatives or similarly-featured successors.
• No polish, no consistency and no HIG adherence (even KDE developers admit it).
• Various Linux components are loosely connected vs. other desktop operating systems like Windows and Mac OS X which means the same tasks running on Linux will consume quite a lot more energy (power) and as a result laptop users running Linux have a worse battery life. Here are some examples from a normal daily life: editing documents, listening to music, watching YouTube videos, or even playing games. Another example will be a simple task of desktop rendering: whereas Windows uses GPU acceleration and scheduling for many tasks related to rendering the image on the screen, Linux usually uses none.

[mSparks 2,086]

2 hours ago, Greazer said:

Good luck powering linux on your multi million dollar luxury yacht to the Caribbean 🤢  I guess it's better there than the Desktop.  Oops guess you haven't read Major Linux Fails 2021

did you actually read those "fails" before you posted them?

yes, linux cant make up for cheap hardware and beta versions of software changes and breaks often.

otoh, there is very good reasons redhat can charge $300 per workstation install per year and microsoft can barely give windows 8 8.1 or 10 or 11 away for free.

win98, winxp sp3 and windows 7 were great operating systems, performative for their time and stable. They are all EOL and not a serious option

Im still raging from that time last year or the year before - still fresh - when microsofts send everything you type in start to microsoft service broke killing the start button and left our entire windows using staff unable to work for a week before they fixed it.

Really dont think "beta linux is buggy on cheap windows laptops" really comes close to that "words developers use to describe computers". 

If that is the kind of thing that you want to avoid get an m1 macbook air and live the good life, that should even run xp11 and xp12 (unconfirmed, but at this point i would be very surprised if it didnt).

mac however falls over when you want that experience on high end hardware.

The only people paying $11000 for a mac pro are those who dont have the choice of running linux on an rtx3090/amd5950x. windows in that market segment is nowhere to be seen.

e.g.

https://www.quora.com/What-operating-system-do-the-Google-employees-use-How-much-freedom-do-they-have-with-respect-to-an-OS-usage

Edited September 15, 2021 by mSparks

[Bjoern 1,157]

9 hours ago, mjrhealth said:

Well tech pretty much just sucks. Our company spent millions on new transmitters, only to be told if you want latest firmware update it will cost you a little more. Our finance guy questioned life expectancy of new gear, used to be 30 years, now 15 if you are lucky. Its honesty getting beyond a joke, It was fun but now its just darn scary.

Had to RTM a seven months old 5800X a few weeks ago whose device controller failed overnight. No overclocking, no excessive temperatures and even a slight bit of undervolting applied. First CPU failure in 25 years and I hope it stays the only one.

[jarmstro 2,402]

12 hours ago, mSparks said:

did you actually read those "fails" before you posted them?

yes, linux cant make up for cheap hardware and beta versions of software changes and breaks often.

otoh, there is very good reasons redhat can charge $300 per workstation install per year and microsoft can barely give windows 8 8.1 or 10 or 11 away for free.

win98, winxp sp3 and windows 7 were great operating systems, performative for their time and stable. They are all EOL and not a serious option

Im still raging from that time last year or the year before - still fresh - when microsofts send everything you type in start to microsoft service broke killing the start button and left our entire windows using staff unable to work for a week before they fixed it.

Really dont think "beta linux is buggy on cheap windows laptops" really comes close to that "words developers use to describe computers". 

If that is the kind of thing that you want to avoid get an m1 macbook air and live the good life, that should even run xp11 and xp12 (unconfirmed, but at this point i would be very surprised if it didnt).

mac however falls over when you want that experience on high end hardware.

The only people paying $11000 for a mac pro are those who dont have the choice of running linux on an rtx3090/amd5950x. windows in that market segment is nowhere to be seen.

e.g.

https://www.quora.com/What-operating-system-do-the-Google-employees-use-How-much-freedom-do-they-have-with-respect-to-an-OS-usage

Linux is not a realistic option for the vast majority of simmers even if they crave a few extra FPS. It requires a degree of programming knowledge that few have in order to get anything to run. For instance driver support is rubbish and unintuitive.  And why should they? Most have better ways to enjoy their leisure time. My advice to any sane person in all seriousness is to avoid it and to stick to an OS designed with a human being in mind.

You may recall that I tried it. I came. I saw. I capitulated.

[mSparks 2,086]

2 hours ago, jarmstro said:

It requires a degree of programming knowledge that few have in order to get anything to run.

I accept touching an icon on the home page of a steam deck will still be to complicated for many people.

I just dont accept the idea that such people would be interested in the start up, take off and land proceedures of a C172, let alone a 747.

I also completely reject the idea that "most flight simmers" do not want Garmin products in their light aircraft or fmcs in their tubes (aka "not microsoft windows devices").

see also

https://www.design-reuse.com/news/28729/faa-approval-lynuxworks-lynxos-178-reusable-software-rtos-safety-critical.html

I also think one of the biggest "issues" people have with linux and macs - in fact any posix compliant OS - is by design once they work they keep working, leaving many people no idea what to do next. Whereas windows/xbox drives constant engagement by forcing people to struggle to keep it running on a regular basis and wait for hours for it to update every time they switch it on..

That anticipation of what nice new things there will be, fear of what will break when the update finishes, and disappointment that there is nothing new when it does is most of the fun of msfs isnt it? Microsoft turned it into an artform, Laminar dont seem that interested in replicating that experience.

Edited September 16, 2021 by mSparks

[jcomm 5,939]

There are some Linux releases that can be used by children and me 🙂

They're so user friendly and  made simple and intuitive, that even me who worked for years as a programmer, systems admin, user in various flavours of UNIX and VAX VMX / Open VMS, starting in a Zilog 8000 in the early 80s, and "hate" Linux because 90% of my servers run on it, can use it at home...

Productivity is also no longer a justification not to use Linux, and wife has actually suggested installing it at home in the new simming rig - I believe her move is that of finally making me go serious and start doing some decent Pyhton code for her meteorology stuff 🙂

At home and at the office I don't even use MS Office but rather WPS, so, my only problem is that I can't decently run IL2 Battle of Stalingrad in Linux 😞 and yes I know I can have various interesting options, but have tried it and t's just not like running it in Windowze....

BUT ! Should LR present good reasons for me to turn my home desktop into a Linux desktop with whatever they plan to offer with X-Plane 12, I will probably change my mind and go single sim ( XP Next Gen ) and new OS ( Linux ) for the rest of my life ...

Edited September 16, 2021 by jcomm

[jarmstro 2,402]

59 minutes ago, mSparks said:

I accept touching an icon on the home page of a steam deck will still be to complicated for many people.

I just dont accept the idea that such people would be interested in the start up, take off and land proceedures of a C172, let alone a 747.

Irrelevant. There are those who enjoy entering code into a command line and those who have better things to do such as enjoying their simulator. Linux is little more advanced than MSDOS imo in that it is equally as difficult to use. I remember so well the first version of Windows that replaced DOS which made computers accessible to everyone. Linux is just community freeware geek soup.