XP12 system requirements

[jarmstro 2,402]

Just now, Gulfstream said:

To be fair, my Windows PC gives me an instant crash to desktop with MSFS 2020 when I click "Fly Now".

I'm a senior software engineer now in direct contact with engineers on the other side.

I'm 100% serious here, no fanboyism.  

It has to be a real concern to LR to manage not only the upgrade, but the support fall-out from it, with a small team.

That's probably the FBW nxi mod. I haven't had a CTD for quite a while. Mind you ive just reinstalled Ubuntu and it's hung when trying to connect to an online account.

[jarmstro 2,402]

16 minutes ago, mSparks said:

how much did you spend on your windows PC?

A small fortune. It's been a case of constant hardware upgrades. The last time I bought a completely new entire PC was 30 years ago. Its not just a windows PC. I am typing this in Firefox/Ubuntu.

Edited September 16, 2021 by jarmstro

[mSparks 2,086]

1 hour ago, jarmstro said:

A small fortune

So, around the time msfs was announced, my biggest initial criticism was - youre gonna need a super computer to run it [to get anywhere near the screenshots and videos they shared]

It wasnt until RTX3000 and XBox series x were announced some time later that this not being so important became clear, they also seemed to have rolled back even on the higher end.

But still, "a small fortune on a PC" is not a big enough market to make a return selling games/simulators at "normal" consumer prices like xp and msfs. Not enough of them these days to cover a single devs salary for a year.

But the PC market is much bigger than that, its just they are more modest machines, intel integrated graphics, maybe a bottom of the range amd or nvidia gpu, also for the last decade or so getting older because people were only upgrading when hardware died, spending on the latest and greatest iPhone or Android flagship instead.

They still fly xplane and msfs, but like the mobile users, generally dont have much to say.

[jarmstro 2,402]

14 minutes ago, mSparks said:

So, around the time msfs was announced, my biggest initial criticism was - youre gonna need a super computer to run it [to get anywhere near the screenshots and videos they shared]

It wasnt until RTX3000 and XBox series x were announced some time later that this not being so important became clear, they also seemed to have rolled back even on the higher end.

But still, "a small fortune on a PC" is not a big enough market to make a return selling games/simulators at "normal" consumer prices like xp and msfs. Not enough of them these days to cover a single devs salary for a year.

But the PC market is much bigger than that, its just they are more modest machines, intel integrated graphics, maybe a bottom of the range amd or nvidia gpu, also for the last decade or so getting older because people were only upgrading when hardware died, spending on the latest and greatest iPhone or Android flagship instead.

They still fly xplane and msfs, but like the mobile users, generally dont have much to say.

Not sure of the point you are trying to make but I still believe it would be madness for LR to drop Windows. Even if there were sufficient numbers of Linux/Mac users prepared to pay £2000  for XP12 to make it viable how many people would pay £3000 in order for third parties to develop a plane? Even though you hate it MSFS is in fact it is very good and XP12 won't be ten times better. And value for money talks.

[mSparks 2,086]

35 minutes ago, jarmstro said:

it would be madness for LR to drop Windows.

OK, thats likely me not being clear.

There is a distinct difference between targeting windows - using directx11-directx12U to get the best performance out of all windows machines possible bought between years from now and 13 years ago when dx11 was first released.

And windows support coming as a side effect of it having some vulkan support.

By "some support" I am referring back to the discussion on the first few pages, and the fact that the majorty of windows PCs people currently own look like they wont run xp12, by the nature of them not having nor ever getting a vulkan driver version high enough to do so.

It has been mentioned during a previous q&a they could do directx support, but afaik there is no firm commitment to do so. 

35 minutes ago, jarmstro said:

Not sure of the point you are trying to make

I dont think they should waste developer time on people with integrated intel gpus even if they are the majority of windows pcs.

Id much rather have, say, all of that time go into making the weather simulation breath taking, the blades of grass blowing in the wind photo realistic or perfectly simulated toilet bowls for all the default planes that should have them.

Then let those windows users left out in the cold buy a steam deck if they want to fly it.

Edited September 16, 2021 by mSparks

[Humpty 751]

7 minutes ago, mSparks said:

 

By "some support" I am referring back to the discussion on the first few pages, and the fact that the majorty of windows PCs people currently own look like they wont run xp12, by the nature of them not having nor ever getting a vulkan driver version high enough to do so.

You need to be more specific as to which windows users you are talking about ? You are confusing things so best be more clear.

Unless you are targeting every pc that runs windows on this planet but has no connection to any flight sims or games

[jarmstro 2,402]

32 minutes ago, mSparks said:

There is a distinct difference between targeting windows - using directx11-directx12U to get the best performance out of all windows machines possible bought between years from now and 13 years ago when dx11 was first released.

But I thought XP12 was using Vulkan which you said was next generation and far superior to DX12? So why on earth would LR bother with DirectX? It's not necessary. No old machines will be able to run DX12. Or Vulkan either. And NVidia will always put the majority of their effort into their Windows drivers which include Vulkan support. So what's the issue?

Edited September 16, 2021 by jarmstro

[fogboundturtle 2,708]

Vulkan is not superior to DX12 by a long shot. It just more nonsense from mSparks.

[akita 429]

Both DX12 and Vulkan perform mostly the same on windows on my machine (played RDR2), from other benchmarks I saw Vulkan has an overall better FPS but DX12 has higher minimum FPS, both by negligble % difference.

AMD and Nvidia heavy test their cards with both APIs, AMD however are really not the best when it comes to driver bugs...

[fogboundturtle 2,708]

35 minutes ago, akita said:

Both DX12 and Vulkan perform mostly the same on windows on my machine (played RDR2), from other benchmarks I saw Vulkan has an overall better FPS but DX12 has higher minimum FPS, both by negligble % difference.

AMD and Nvidia heavy test their cards with both APIs, AMD however are really not the best when it comes to driver bugs...

DX12 supports VRS, Mesh Shading and other advance calls that Vulkan does not. And it's only recently that Vulkan adding ray tracing into their api. Vulkan is great but it's not as mature as DX12. RDR2 did not implement any of the advanced DX12 functions. 

[akita 429]

27 minutes ago, fogboundturtle said:

DX12 supports VRS, Mesh Shading and other advance calls that Vulkan does not. And it's only recently that Vulkan adding ray tracing into their api. Vulkan is great but it's not as mature as DX12. RDR2 did not implement any of the advanced DX12 functions. 

It supports everything you mentioned, not sure how good or standard the extenstions are.

Edited September 16, 2021 by akita

[Bjoern 1,156]

13 hours ago, jarmstro said:

Will Linux run MSFS? If not why would I deprive myself of another superb simulator?.

Mixed bag at the moment:

https://www.protondb.com/app/1250410

 

11 hours ago, jarmstro said:

The point is that whether you wanted too or not you couldn't. And therefore you could not use and enjoy 90% of the best available games, sims, programs etc etc. So why would anyone want Linux? I'm ready to be persuaded there is some killer advantage but at present I can't see one? X-Plane itself runs on Linux but many of what I consider to be essential plugins do not.

I have no technical qualms with Windows 10 (it works), but the level of unnecessary BS in form of apps that Windows starts to accumulate at every reinstall or major upgrade has made it more and more unattractive over time. And it has become somewhat stale on a technical level because all I ever see regarding major improvements seems to be centered on apps or non-core features with nothing about the underlying mechanics or actual innovations like an update manager that supports driver downloads from third party sites instead of months old drivers from Microsoft's repository. Because keeping Windows up to date is hell. On Windows Update, it's endless waiting for the download, installation preparation, installation and cleanup and a reboot. And that just covers the core stuff. Updating hardware drivers involves visiting half a dozen websites, downloading installers, running installers, rebooting after. each. and. every. installation. and then cleaning up after the installer. And if that's not enough, vendors want you to use their bloatware utilities for controlling their hardware that take up hundreds of megabytes of disk space offering next to no value for daily usage (looking at you, AMD).

Updating and upgrading Linux is a matter of a single terminal command, a short wait for the downloads and installation and a reboot. Done. And you only get what you actually need.

As for compatibility, I don't mind if something does not run on Linux (or in Proton/WINE). Keeps the wallet full and Steam Library lean. Same principle for X-Plane add-ons. But the list of Steam/WINE games is getting shorter with every release as long as the evs are fed with bug reports and have time to fix things up.

The most exciting aspect of Linux is its pace of development. What did not work or was slow yesterday may work or be fast tomorrow. It's pretty cool.

 

Edited September 16, 2021 by Bjoern

[mSparks 2,086]

5 hours ago, jarmstro said:

But I thought XP12 was using Vulkan which you said was next generation and far superior to DX12

vulkan is ~directx12U in terms of what it offers developers

https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/announcing-directx-12-ultimate/

afaik there are no titles out that make use of it as yet.

"next gen"

XP11 vulkan wasnt about actually using it - just getting it working.

5 hours ago, Humpty said:

You need to be more specific as to which windows users you are talking about ? You are confusing things so best be more clear

But thats just it "windows pc" isnt specific. It includes jarmstro that spent a small fortune on his pc over the decades, people who spent €2000 on a windows laptop 3 years ago, and people like one of my friends who is addicted to playing kingdom come deliverance at 5fps on his cheap___ work desktop PC.

The later two will get "xp12 couldnt find a suitable vulkan driver and had to close" if they try and start it, and always will.

Edited September 16, 2021 by mSparks

[jarmstro 2,402]

3 hours ago, Bjoern said:

have no technical qualms with Windows 10 (it works), but the level of unnecessary BS in form of apps that Windows starts to accumulate at every reinstall or major upgrade has made it more and more unattractive over time. And it has become somewhat stale on a technical level because all I ever see regarding major improvements seems to be centered on apps or non-core features with nothing about the underlying mechanics or actual innovations like an update manager that supports driver downloads from third party sites instead of months old drivers from Microsoft's repository. Because keeping Windows up to date is hell.

I agree about the Apps. It's just how it is these days. IOS is exactly the same I've found. I find it quite sinister really. Win10 was a free upgrade so the writing was on the wall. Privacy and personal choice are long gone though I accept they are slower to disappear if you use Linux. As for updating Windows I just have automatic updates turned on and never think about it. The same with IOS which I am obliged to have on my phone and tablet. Just about the only system software I manually keep up to date are the NVidia drivers.
 

There is no doubt Windows (and IOS) is a bloated monstrosity. But as long as I can just switch on, click an icon and it runs the programs I want to use it's doing its job.

[mSparks 2,086]

2 hours ago, jarmstro said:

But as long as I can just switch on, click an icon and it runs the programs I want to use it's doing its job.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/ubuntu-spyware.en.html