1 hour ago, DJJose said:

There's only one way to fix the problem. Let our wallets do the talking.

That's correct. I've already opened a ticket with them and because there's no solution yet, I decided to stop all purchases from SimMarket for the time being.

Apart of this, it's kind of illegal what they're doing, in the sense that they're in fact limiting your access to your already purchased products.

10 hours ago, edpatino said:

Apart of this, it's kind of illegal what they're doing, in the sense that they're in fact limiting your access to your already purchased products.

I don't think this is quite the case.  You can still download your purchased products, but the process may be different for those products with Siminstaller if the app must now be used for those.  There are still questions though, in view of contradictory responses from SimMarket support.

Can anyone say at what point in the purchase process you are told that the product has Siminstaller technology and the app must be used.  I could not see any reference on any pre purchase product pages.  My recent purchases were older software and were not affected by this, so I am curious.

1 hour ago, Biggles2010 said:

You can still download your purchased products, but the process may be different for those products with Siminstaller if the app must now be used for those.

Things look a bit better today (US ET), but still downloading from the App is in my case, more or less at a half of the rate you can usually get when downloading through the website.

To me it's very confusing why for certain products you're still obliged to download from the App and cannot download from the website. I'll send a new ticket today to SimMarket, my last one.

It's no different from what Aerosoft has done. I needed an ap to download their Simple Traffic add-on.

It looks like this will be the new trend that sellers will be using. ORBX started the trend and it's apparently working well for them.

22 minutes ago, DJJose said:

It looks like this will be the new trend that sellers will be using. ORBX started the trend and it's apparently working well for them.

This seems to be 2004 all over again:

Half Life 2 gets released, for the first time ever requiring "a new stupid app" to install ( that is the Steam client ), even if you bought the DVD in a shop, the app was still required to run it and authenticate it. And I DO recall very well pitchworks and torches and talks about boycotting the game and not giving up on DVDs and where's the world will end up with...

Fast-forward today, nobody even remembers where his Half-life DVD ended up, assuming it still work, and Steam single-handily saved PC gaming as a whole, because in the early 2000s, everybody in the industry was basically sure gaming on PC was dying.

Apart from that, there's an obvious efficiency reason for having a single app that downloads ( and I'd say it would be best if it could install as well ) and manages products, and it's the fact a single app is far easier to debug and update, compared to dozen ( or in some cases hundreds ) of different installers.

Because, if you found a bug in the installer , or maybe just a new version of the sim comes out and you need to update the installer to detect it, or you find a better way to deal with the *generic* installation process, if you have ONE app, YOU ( as a developer ) and users as well, will only need to update ONE app, while if you need to update all the installers, it will be way more complex, for example in case the outdated/bugged installer might cause issues when used together with the new bugfixed one. How do you take *away* the bugged installer from user's hands ? How do you ALERT all users stop using it ?

Obviously, single-apps usually come with issues at first, but once they are fixed, they are usually far more reliable than having to scrounge the web sites for dozen of different installers.

Edited April 4, 20224 yr by virtuali

Depending on how this goes...I may be done purchasing any future products from Simmarket.

14 minutes ago, virtuali said:

Apart from that, there's an obvious efficiency reason for having a single app that downloads ( and I'd say it would be best if it could install as well ) and manages products, and it's the fact a single app is far easier to debug and update, compared to dozen ( or in some cases hundreds ) of different installers.

That's not the case at all.  Steam mostly works great, but EA's similar App is a nightmare.  Ubisoft's is buggy.  I haven't even used Epic's one, or the few others out there.  I think you'd have a hard time finding someone here who hasn't had major issues with the MS Store who bought anything from there.  Steam is actually the exception. 

This whole "they all just work and make our lives easier" idea simply isn't true.  This isn't just the usual "fear change", but legitimate issues. 

 

 

26 minutes ago, virtuali said:

This seems to be 2004 all over again:

Half Life 2 gets released, for the first time ever requiring "a new stupid app" to install ( that is the Steam client ), even if you bought the DVD in a shop, the app was still required to run it and authenticate it. And I DO recall very well pitchworks and torches and talks about boycotting the game and not giving up on DVDs and where's the world will end up with...

Fast-forward today, nobody even remembers where his Half-life DVD ended up, assuming it still work, and Steam single-handily saved PC gaming as a whole, because in the early 2000s, everybody in the industry was basically sure gaming on PC was dying.

Apart from that, there's an obvious efficiency reason for having a single app that downloads ( and I'd say it would be best if it could install as well ) and manages products, and it's the fact a single app is far easier to debug and update, compared to dozen ( or in some cases hundreds ) of different installers.

Because, if you found a bug in the installer , or maybe just a new version of the sim comes out and you need to update the installer to detect it, or you find a better way to deal with the *generic* installation process, if you have ONE app, YOU ( as a developer ) and users as well, will only need to update ONE app, while if you need to update all the installers, it will be way more complex, for example in case the outdated/bugged installer might cause issues when used together with the new bugfixed one. How do you take *away* the bugged installer from user's hands ? How do you ALERT all users stop using it ?

Obviously, single-apps usually come with issues at first, but once they are fixed, they are usually far more reliable than having to scrounge the web sites for dozen of different installers.

Umberto,

I think APs are redundant. A good website should suffice.

BTW, can you please give us an update on PHNL? I'd like to complete my beautiful Hawaii.

Thank you.

38 minutes ago, virtuali said:

Obviously, single-apps usually come with issues at first, but once they are fixed, they are usually far more reliable than having to scrounge the web sites for dozen of different installers.

First, you comparison is not even close to the reality, as also nowadays, Steam alone is not sufficient for all games, depending on what you play, you might end up having one tool like Steam for each game you own. On my end, I have Steam, Ubisoft launcher, Origin, simmarket, Contrail, ORBX, Flight1 Wrapper, PMDG Ops Center and and and. This basic idea of "having one tool to manage everything" does simply not work. And if you have only one single game/product per tool, you might be updating more often than with just the game alone installed. Example: while RDR2 has only two, three updates a year, this stupid Rockstare Game Launcher needs to download an update almost everytime I fire it up. Same goes for this simmarket app now: since I installed it, there was one single product update but already four updates to the app. If this should be more efficient, I wonder how you guys define "efficiency". 

Then: the comparison even fails more because the big advantage you mention, to have everything in one place, is already given by the simmarket online resource. It told me if a product update is available and I had a lot of simming products collected in one single store. There was absolutely NO need in moving this into a separate desktop app, none. Especially not to cover the "big advantage" you were talking about. 

Last: it would be minor if those providing such apps at least took the time to develop their app into such a final stage that it actually provides a benefit. But if even the app is half-beta with slower download speeds, no downloads at all, complicated menues (did anyone already manage to sort MSFS addons according to their publication date?) and other quirks, one must really ask the question: what for? Why already now?

So much for the "advantages" of having such apps. They only work in the super limited selfish point of view of the provider, never for the customer...

36 minutes ago, AnkH said:

First, you comparison is not even close to the reality, as also nowadays, Steam alone is not sufficient for all games, depending on what you play, you might end up having one tool like Steam for each game you own.

You just made my point....somebody said "I don't want ANOTHER app". I'm saying having one app for each major store it's better than having an app for each game, that's a quite different.

 

Quote

On my end, I have Steam, Ubisoft launcher, Origin, simmarket, Contrail, ORBX, Flight1 Wrapper, PMDG Ops Center and and and.

So you are missing FSDT's app...assuming you bought all our products just for MSFS, it would require you to keep track of 10 different installers.

 

36 minutes ago, AnkH said:

And if you have only one single game/product per tool, you might be updating more often than with just the game alone installed.

It goes without saying that ( and I said it at least twice in my previous post ), the advantage of having a single app is mostly seen when it can replace tens or even hundreds of separate installers. Clearly, if you need to install an app just for ONE game, is redundant but, in case of Simmarket, chances are the app might be able to replace lots of separate installers.

Note that, in a previous post of mine, I already said this would be most effective if the single app could do MORE than "just" downloading stuff. It should be able to install, uninstall, manage licenses, do updates. I don't think Simmarket will ever get there but, at least, it might be able to replace all products using the "Simmarket installer", that would be already a benefit. 

 

36 minutes ago, AnkH said:

So much for the "advantages" of having such apps. They only work in the super limited selfish point of view of the provider, never for the customer...

An easier to debug application ( because it's ONE app ), it's clearly better for both developers and users. 

Again, I assuming the app should be able to install, uninstall, update and manage licenses, Simmarket might not be there yet, but it's just wrong being opposed to apps in principle, just because you don't like one or is still missing features or has bugs.

Edited April 4, 20224 yr by virtuali

3 hours ago, Biggles2010 said:

Can anyone say at what point in the purchase process you are told that the product has Siminstaller technology and the app must be used.  I could not see any reference on any pre purchase product pages.  My recent purchases were older software and were not affected by this, so I am curious.

I'm not sure about the Simmarket App but months ago I bought two Flightbeam airports from Simmarket and had to download something called "contrail.exe." Install that program in order to download the airports.

Contrail recognizes a bunch of different addons I've bought but tells me it can't do anything with them cuz of being bought from another vendor. What else is Contrail observing on my computer?

14 minutes ago, virtuali said:

So you are missing FSDT's app...assuming you bought all our products just for MSFS, it would require you to keep track of 10 different installers.

Which was no issue at all for years, when simmarket simply told me that there is an update for a (FSDT) product online. I still see no benefit of having this info in a separate app now instead of on my simmarket webpage account. None. 

Then it is not a coordinated approach: your FSDT products are still available to buy from simmarket. But also directly from your own shop. So what is the benefit for a customer with such approaches? I can buy the product within simmarket to have everything tidy and in one place, yet I still need to download your updater to keep FSDT products up to date? And I am pretty sure that even if the simmarket app will offer updates later on, we would still need your updater to do the job, no?

1 hour ago, AnkH said:

.......This basic idea of "having one tool to manage everything" does simply not work. And if you have only one single game/product per tool, you might be updating more often than with just the game alone installed. . .......Same goes for this simmarket app now: since I installed it, there was one single product update but already four updates to the app. If this should be more efficient, I wonder how you guys define "efficiency". 

The unfortunate reality is that most retail outlets no longer care about what typical Avsim members think.  The market changed with the launch of MSFS, and while most of us were happy to download from established reliable old style websites, the retailers are now chasing the uninformed masses.  For them, if someone doesn't have a pretty looking app, claiming to do everything for them, it would be considered too 'old fashioned' for the trendy new generations of software buyers to spend money.

Previous attempts at 'having one tool' were not all user friendly.

Of the current systems, I would say that Orbx works best.  I dislike the company attitude, but their products are good and for me the purchase, installation and update system is faultless.

The Flight1 wrapper may add to their software security, but has always been a pain to use, often leading the user round in circles.

The current Aerosoft app I am not familiar with, but previously they had the 'Aerosoft Launcher' which was a required installation, supposed to link all Aerosoft products and deal with authentication and updating. I found it clunky, unintuitive and often useless at identifying installed software and picking up available updates.

The SimMarket app is a mixed bag.  It looks pretty and shows available updates,  but It has a number of irritating bugs and still downloads at half the speed of the main website. Why was it launched without proper testing?  As for its benefits, I have not identified any.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Biggles2010 said:

The current Aerosoft app I am not familiar with, but previously they had the 'Aerosoft Launcher' which was a required installation, supposed to link all Aerosoft products and deal with authentication and updating. I found it clunky, unintuitive and often useless at identifying installed software and picking up available updates.

Yeah, this Aerosoft updater is another of those half-baked tools nobody wants, they still did not manage to make the tool capable of updating everything and every second update it still tells you "this is a full replacement of the older version and needs to be downloaded seperately from the shop page". So much for "benefit for the user..." I could go on forever with comparable examples of most of those tools... and yes, the ORBX one is the most convenient, almost no issues with that one.

23 minutes ago, AnkH said:

when simmarket simply told me that there is an update for a (FSDT) product online. I still see no benefit of having this info in a separate app now instead of on my simmarket webpage account. None. 

That's the issue: you assumed you were up to date, because you sometime got update notifications from Simmarket. But the only time you were notified, was when we decided to upload a new installer to Simmarket, which happens much less often than *actual* updates to the product, because of course we had a separate Live Updater way before we had an "app" to also do installation, so we didn't update the installers each time the actual product got an update.

So, before the FSDT app, you had to:

- Rely on Simmarket to know there's an update. So you missed all the updates that didn't require a new installer.

- Augment that information with the FSDT Live update, which did only updates, but not installs.

- Activate the license with a separate app ( the Addon Manager, in FSX/P3D or the installer itself in MSFS )

- Use another app ( the browser ) to retrieve get your keys.

- Use the browser to get the installer, which in case of MSFS would require logging on different websites ( Simmarket, or Digital River ), and Digital River downloads had an expiration date.

Now, with the FSDT app, if you need to reinstall, ALL you need is THERE. No logins, no installers ( at least for MSFS, FSX/P3D installs will come later ), activation, deactivation, and check for udpates, it's all there, and instead of a separate install+update at the end, the latest files are downloaded while they are installed.

Way easier and faster, no comparison.

Edited April 4, 20224 yr by virtuali