Any new info on XP12 ground scenery / autogen?

[mSparks 2,123]

16 minutes ago, rka said:

I'm off to check my mailbox, the new paycheck should have arrived today! 😛

I do actually believe we wont see you much on these forums in 2023...

[rka 916]

40 minutes ago, mSparks said:

I do actually believe we wont see you much on these forums in 2023...

Why this?

[mjrhealth 857]

This isnt about anything. Just a big Ego trip for the few.

[Claviateur 789]

4 hours ago, mjrhealth said:

This isnt about anything. Just a big Ego trip for the few.

It should be a discussion about scenery tech and autogen basically but it is clearly not working 

[blingthinger 671]

On 5/30/2022 at 5:46 PM, Murmur said:

So if MSFS shills come here provoking

 

What else is one to do when the flight model has you bored to tears, the trees can't be used to tell wind direction or season (before they disappear in front of your eyes), the seaplanes plop down onto a fine layer of sludge instead of pitching waves, and Wednesday bingo has lost its cachet?

 

On 5/31/2022 at 9:23 AM, tweekz said:

An improved version of XP11.

A testament to the strength of the sim. What LR has done with so few staff vs. the resources of a mega corporation, is remarkable. The fact that there are MSFS users who can't quite emotionally let go, is further proof of LR's influence on their hopes and dreams.

 

I personally can't wait to see the asobo scenery gateway. Oh, right...another first place for XP. Pity that Austin has ethical standards and hasn't been bothering with software patents this whole time. MS would have more than a few lawsuits on their hands.

[blingthinger 671]

9 minutes ago, Claviateur said:

It should be a discussion about scenery tech and autogen basically but it is clearly not working 

What I really want to know is how LR is drawing the boat and seaplane wakes on the 3D waves.

[Claviateur 789]

1 hour ago, blingthinger said:

What I really want to know is how LR is drawing the boat and seaplane wakes on the 3D waves.

It could be an effect generated with a script perhaps but I am not sure. Perhaps someone else can say more about this.

[mSparks 2,123]

9 hours ago, blingthinger said:

What I really want to know is how LR is drawing the boat and seaplane wakes on the 3D waves.

reasonably sure the water in XP12 is now gpu compute.

Been a very long time coming to a commercial product. 

and a lot of headaches along the way

But looks like LR will get another 1st getting true liquid physics out to the masses.

There are links around of both Ben Supnik and Austin discussing the R&D there.

9 hours ago, blingthinger said:

What LR has done with so few staff

Quality over Quantity shocker.

Edited June 2, 2022 by mSparks

[blingthinger 671]

23 hours ago, Claviateur said:

My friend prefers to disable Photogrammetry and enjoys 100% fancy procedural coverage... Even in remote areas...

"asking for a friend" type statements are typically interpreted as confessions on the interwebs, FYI! ; )

@mrueedi posted this link

https://www.asobostudio.com/files/inline-images/Designing_Terrain_System_Fuentes_Lionel.pdf

which has left me very confused.

Asobo claims to have been using AI / machine learning for the scenery generation and placement with lots of loud volume and chest thumping.

However.....slide 10 lists all the things they use vector data for. Vector source in this case is OSM (slide 6). Another XP first. Why one would need OSM when you have access to Bing is odd...but here we are. Another shot at LR maybe?

Slide 66 again discusses what they use vector data for, though they now remove building footprints, contradicting slide 10.

Machine learning gets one. single. solitary mention on slide 73. It looks like they only use it for trees, but even then, are actually using OSM??

I know everyone is aware that "procedural" does not necessarily equal "machine learning". What's going on here? 

This really sounds like the same type of marketing hot air that accompanied the flight model.

[blingthinger 671]

2 hours ago, mSparks said:

reasonably sure the water in XP12 is now gpu compute.

I've read that too. I think they first played with this back in v10? If I remember correctly. But it was too computationally intense for FPS.

What's cool about it to me is that they are adding in a discrete disturbance (wake) in the middle of the gpu-generated waves when an object goes by (boat or plane). I'm really curious if that is being done on the gpu or cpu. And also what happens when 2 boats cross paths? What do the wakes look like? I know, I know...patience.

[mrueedi 702]

1 hour ago, blingthinger said:

What's going on here? 

The linked document explains terrain generation. Bascially the environment or the nature of our globe. There, OSM vector data is used for water body outlines.

The AI part is better described here:

Meet the startup that helped Microsoft build the world of Flight Simulator | TechCrunch

These guys (50 people, among them were two PhDs in "Rooftop reconstruction", a specialization which was hardly available at any other place than in Graz) have accomplished the global coverage with buildings. Not the photogrammetry part, which is old-fashioned tech, but the generation of a precise global replication of all the cities and settlements, and be it a single shack somewhere in the Alps.

OSM data was used in MSFS where available and reasonable (and wrong OSM building height was also the reason for one of mSparks screenshots), but OSM is far away from offering global coverage. You can't accomplish a global true replication of our globe with OSM alone. For 1.5 billion buildings globally they had to generate data by AI (because no other data was there). You will never get that data with the same fidelity with any other method than AI. Never.

When I say that MSFS represents the best existing digital 3D model of the world, ever created by mankind, then I mean the AI part, covering 100% of the earths surface and not the photogrammetry part, covering only a tiny fraction of that.

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by mrueedi
typo

[Claviateur 789]

1 hour ago, blingthinger said:

 

This really sounds like the same type of marketing hot air that accompanied the flight model.

I am certainly not going to comment on the Friend statement...

As for the footprint data in their engine (since it concerns the topic of this thread), the only way to know if it is Marketing or some machine learning was involved to augment the OSM + Bing data, is to go to remote areas where there is no Bing or OSM footprint available and see if there is any 3D infrastructure over the Bing building that has a matching footprint shape...

Also to see if this 3D infrastructure has a type that is plausible to what the Bing building has... More of less of course...

 

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by Claviateur

[mSparks 2,123]

1 hour ago, blingthinger said:

I'm really curious if that is being done on the gpu or cpu. And also what happens when 2 boats cross paths? What do the wakes look like? I know, I know...patience.

Thats why I posted the Q2 stuff I did on it.... ohhhh 10 or 15 years ago now, that vid is 8 years old, and was an upload rescuing from expiring webhosting.

compute wise its reasonably heavy, but also fairly efficient. modern gpu compute should have absolutely no problems, which is what they have been shifting to while they got vulkan somewhat stable in XP11.

Trouble was always the "edge cases" and getting it right for different hardware. Very timing sensitive, where missed frames bork the physics. 

They seem confident enough to show it working, so should be working.

13 minutes ago, Claviateur said:

some machine learning was involved to augment the OSM + Bing data

There are a lot more mapping sources available than just bing, google and OSM.

E.g. XPs WED streams ortho data from ESRI, so LR have a licence to derive data from them, there is also other huge players like USGS, Navteq, Bartholomews, OrdinanceSurvey, Garmin and a host of smaller players, some free, some paid, some insanely expensive.

Its a very interesting topic for sure, but the only innovative thing that MSFS brought to the table - via Asobo - is high fps/efficient orthogrammmetry. neat toy, that most everyone turns off.

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by mSparks

[Claviateur 789]

4 minutes ago, mSparks said:

E.g. XPs WED streams ortho data from ESRI, so LR have a licence to derive data from them, there is also other huge players like USGS, Navteq, Bartholomews, OrdinanceSurvey, Garmin and a host of smaller players, some free, some paid, some insanely expensive.

Its a very interesting topic for sure, but the only innovative thing that MSFS brought to the table - via Asobo - is high fps/efficient orthogrammmetry. neat toy, that most everyone turns off.

 

Maybe you are right, some worldwide vector data out there that MS only can afford and that allowed Asobo to useto cover the whole planet with data driven plausible crisp and clear infrastructure.

And yes, I hope LR won't make the same innovative mistake as Asobo with this orthogrammetryblacksharkai whatever, and will be able to also cover the whole planet with data driven plausible and crisp infrastracture no matter where it comes from, for any user, wherever they are, to enjoy some virtual flying over their area.

 

[mSparks 2,123]

18 minutes ago, Claviateur said:

data driven plausible crisp and clear infrastructure.

XP11 was a plausible globe, we've been using it since 2017. That's why, in case you hadn't noticed, no one here was particularly excited for another sim with a plausible globe but inevitably borken physics and always on network requirements, even if that alternative plausible globe comes with the odd splatter of super eye pleasing cartoonish graphics the kids love so much. 

XP12+ is intended to be a realistic globe, discussed in this interview from a couple of years ago iirc:

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by mSparks