27 minutes ago, Matchstick said:

Everything we've seen from MS up to now has been about delivering a flight sim product with mass market appeal - and that's a good thing, MSFS quite possibly would never have existed if MS didn't believe they can do that and along the way at the very least they've create a substrate into which more niche products can be integrated by third parties.

If MS now feel confident enough to alter direction somewhat and allow portions of the core product to be actively targeted at smaller niche audiences  that is genuinely great but it is out character with what we've seen so far from them.

Hi, I don't understand your logic though that Microsoft will make things simpler, like your worry that they will make the iniBuilds A310 simpler.  It's obvious from the design of MSFS, Microsoft wants to target the entire spectrum of the flight sim market, from casuals and people new to flight simulators, to the very hard core.

Back to the example with the iniBuilds A310, if a casual player can start the iniBuilds A310 on the runway with all systems already working, then they can take off and do whatever they want from there.  Ctrl-E is another example, where casuals that don't want to go through a proper cold start, can just start everything up with Ctrl-E.  The iniBuilds A310 doesn't need to be simplified at all, it can still maintain its complexity and be a study level airliner, but it just needs to be spawnable on the runways with all systems and the engines working, and Ctrl-E also needs to work for it so that all systems and the engine are working if the casual user clicks Ctrl-E.

Whereas a hardcore flight sim veteran or a real life A310 pilot, can do a proper cold start with the iniBuilds A310.

So I don't quite understand what you mean that the iniBuilds A310 might be simplified to cater to casual players.  Casual players can spawn the A310 on the runway, or use Ctrl-E to get it up and running, whereas hardcore flight sim veterans or real life A310 pilots, can do a cold start.

Maybe you can explain what you mean when you say you are worried that iniBuilds may simplify their A310 for MSFS.  From my understanding, Microsoft always wanted to make MSFS playable by casual players, and also hard core flight sim veterans, and they seem to have succeeded so far.

Edited July 1, 20223 yr by abrams_tank

15 minutes ago, Matchstick said:

Everything we've seen from MS up to now has been about delivering a flight sim product with mass market appeal - and that's a good thing, MSFS quite possibly would never have existed if MS didn't believe they can do that and along the way at the very least they've create a substrate into which more niche products can be integrated by third parties.

If MS now feel confident enough to alter direction somewhat and allow portions of the core product to be actively targeted at smaller niche audiences  that is genuinely great but it is out character with what we've seen so far from them.

Sorry this is just not true. Like I mentioned before, the iniBuilds A310 is *not* the first time they're delivering something or paying for something that is outside of "mass market appeal". Looking just at the one example of hiring the Working Title team months after initial release, paying their salaries over the past year+ (since March 2021) is a pretty significant financial investment.. and they're still around, delivering content that most would agree are only appreciated by more serious flight simmers. So that in itself shoots down your theory that they only just now are targeting the niche serious simmer crowd. There is no altering of direction here, they are continuing on their stated direction of appealing to a wide variety of the flight simming audience, with the serious simmers a core focus.. all what they're doing over the past two years to now is just bolstering that core focus, and completely within character :)).

Edited July 1, 20223 yr by lwt1971

2 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

Sorry this is just not true. Like I mentioned before, the iniBuilds A310 is *not* the first time they're delivering something or paying for something that is outside of "mass market appeal". Looking just at the one example of hiring the Working Title team months after initial release, paying their salaries over the past year+ (since March 2021) is a pretty significant financial investment.. and they're still around, delivering content that most would agree are only appreciated by more serious flight simmers. So that in itself shoots down the theory they only just now are targeting the niche serious simmer crow. Tere is no altering of direction here, they are continuing on their stated direction of appealing to a wide variety of the flight simming audience, with the serious simmers a core focus.. all what they're doing over the past two years to now is just bolstering that core focus, and completely within character :)).

Yes.  I think the G1000 NXi is an excellent example. As we all know, the G1000 NXi will become the default G1000 at some point in the future.  Casual players new to MSFS, may only recognize the the airspeed indicator and the altimeter on the G1000 NXi PFD, and then take off and do whatever crazy things they want.  The hard core flight sim users and real life pilots, will know how to do more with the G1000 NXi, including full control of the autopilot, entering waypoints, VOR and ADF navigation, and use all the advance features of the G1000 NXi, etc. 

The G1000 NXi doesn't need to be simplified at all. Casual users will get what they want out of the G1000 NXi, and hard core flight sim users or real life pilots, will get what they want out of the G1000 NXi.  So I'm not sure what @Matchstick means, maybe he can explain why things need to be simplified, such as the iniBuilds A310.

23 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

Hi, I don't understand your logic though that Microsoft will make things simpler, like your worry that they will make the iniBuilds A310 simpler.  It's obvious from the design of MSFS, Microsoft wants to target the entire spectrum of the flight sim market, from casuals and people new to flight simulators, to the very hard core.

Back to the example with the iniBuilds A310, if a casual player can start the iniBuilds A310 on the runway with all systems already working, then they can take off and do whatever they want from there.  Ctrl-E is another example, where casuals that don't want to go through a proper cold start, can just start everything up with Ctrl-E.  The iniBuilds A310 doesn't need to be simplified at all, it can still maintain its complexity and be a study level airliner, but it just needs to be spawnable on the runways with all systems and the engines working, and Ctrl-E also needs to work for it so that all systems and the engine are working if the casual user clicks Ctrl-E.

Whereas a hardcore flight sim veteran or a real life A310 pilot, can do a cold start with the iniBuilds A310.

So I don't quite understand what you mean that the iniBuilds A310 might be simplified to cater to casual players.  Casual players can spawn the A310 on the runway, or use Ctrl-E to get it up and running, whereas hardcore flight sim veterans or real life A310 pilots, can do a cold start.

Maybe you can explain what you mean when you say you are worried that iniBuilds may simplify their A310 for MSFS.  From my understanding, Microsoft always wanted to make MSFS playable by casual players, and also hard core flight sim veterans, and they seem to have succeeded so far.

Operating the XP ini A310 requires a significant amount of knowledge of how multiple system operate and interact in order to use - I cannot think of another product MS has included in a core flight sim product (or even as DLC) that comes close to requiring the same dedication to operate.

The G1000NXi is definitely complex but that is just one system and one also intended for use in a GA environment so designed to be at least somewhat accessible.

Edited July 1, 20223 yr by Matchstick

10 minutes ago, Matchstick said:

Operating the XP ini A310 requires a significant amount of knowledge of how multiple system operate and interact in order to use - I cannot thing of another product MS has included in a core product (or even as DLC) that comes close to requiring the same dedication to operate.

The G1000NXi is definitely complex but that is just one system and one also intended for use in a GA environment so designed to be at least somewhat accessible.

Oh, I agree, that full operation of the iniBuilds A310 will probably require a significant amount of knowledge on how the systems operate in order to properly fly it.  Since the iniBuilds A310 isn't out yet, I can use the example of the FBW A320, which I do use.  You can fly the FBW A320, by throttle and flight stick, pretty much. You might even be able to land it without retracting any flaps at all (not sure how that would turn out, I have always had my flaps retracted fully on landing).  I think a casual user would probably fly the FBW A320 this way, and have a lot of fun with it.

Assuming the iniBuilds A310 is a study level airliner, can a casual user not just use the throttle and a flight stick, to fly it around, and even land it if they know how to retract the flaps? I have not used the iniBuilds A310 before, but what would prevent a casual user from flying a study level iniBuilds A310 in MSFS, with just a throttle and flight stick?

(I'm honestly curious, I'm not trying to attack you or anything, I would like to know what part of a study level iniBuilds A310 would prevent a new user from taking off and landing with it, with a throttle and flight stick, and knowing how to retract the flaps, assuming they spawn the A310 on a runway with all the systems and engine working)

Edited July 1, 20223 yr by abrams_tank

1 minute ago, abrams_tank said:

Oh, I agree, that full operation of the iniBuilds A310 will probably require a significant amount of knowledge on how the systems operate in order to properly fly it.  Since the iniBuilds A310 isn't out yet, I can use the example of the FBW A320, which I do use.  You can fly the FBW A320, by throttle and flight stick, pretty much. You might even be able to land it without retracting any flaps at all (not sure how that would turn out, I have always had my flaps retracted fully on landing).  I think a casual user would probably fly the FBW A320 this way, and have a lot of fun with it.

Assuming the iniBuilds A310 is a study level airliner, can a casual user not just use the throttle and a flight stick, to fly it around, and even land it if they know how to retract the flaps? I have not used the iniBuilds A310 before, but what would prevent a casual user from flying a study level iniBuilds A310 in MSFS, with just a throttle and flight stick?

(I'm honestly curious, I'm not trying to attack you or anything, I would like to know what part of a study level iniBuilds A310 would prevent a new user from taking off and landing with it, with a throttle and flight stick, and knowing how to retract the flaps, assuming they spawn the A310 on a runway with all the systems and engine working)

Navigation is the obvious one to begin with - there's a complex early gen FMS which personally I fend less obvious to use than more modern systems (though that might just be that I started with more modern ones so that's how I think).

 

2 minutes ago, Matchstick said:

Navigation is the obvious one to begin with - there's a complex early gen FMS which personally I fend less obvious to use than more modern systems (though that might just be that I started with more modern ones so that's how I think).

 

Ok, I absolutely agree with you.  So I do think the iniBuilds A310 will be study level for MSFS, and I don't think iniBuilds will simplify it all, except for making sure the A310 can spawn on a runway with the systems and engine working (like most planes in MSFS), and making sure Ctrl-E can start all the systems and engine.

Aside from that, I think iniBuilds will keep their A310 as a study level airliner in MSFS.  Casual users probably won't know how to use the FMS on the A310.  They may not even know how to use the autopilot either.  They will probably just take off and land with the A310, with a joystick and throttle, like a casual user would do.

1 hour ago, Matchstick said:

Everything we've seen from MS up to now has been about delivering a flight sim product with mass market appeal - and that's a good thing, MSFS quite possibly would never have existed if MS didn't believe they can do that and along the way at the very least they've create a substrate into which more niche products can be integrated by third parties.

If MS now feel confident enough to alter direction somewhat and allow portions of the core product to be actively targeted at smaller niche audiences  that is genuinely great but it is out character with what we've seen so far from them.

The A310 isn't coming to get casual users salivating for it. It is for people like you and I who might be interested in something that is as authentic as possible. The other benefit to MS is that people like you and I will go around saying MSFS is the sim with the most advanced default planes. Notoriety goes a long way. Even though a casual user doesn't intend on getting a navigraph sub or flying the planes in the most realistic manner, purchasing "The most advanced sim that lets you fly over your house" is still going to be an attractive prospect. Also, have you ever seen the look on Jorg's face when he talks about people calling MSFS arcade? He goes from being his usual jovial self to looking really annoyed. He hates when people talk like that and he is doing everything he can to squash that narrative so the A310 comes as no surprise to me.

In any case you should drop the speculation because iniBuilds have already confirmed that the plane will be better than the one they made for X-Plane.

Edited July 1, 20223 yr by Krakin

They could be including an optional assistance mode. That's just speculation.

Edited July 1, 20223 yr by Tuskin38

16 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

Ok, I absolutely agree with you.  So I do think the iniBuilds A310 will be study level for MSFS, and I don't think iniBuilds will simplify it all, except for making sure the A310 can spawn on a runway with the systems and engine working (like most planes in MSFS), and making sure Ctrl-E can start all the systems and engine.

Aside from that, I think iniBuilds will keep their A310 as a study level airliner in MSFS.  Casual users probably won't know how to use the FMS on the A310.  They may not even know how to use the autopilot either.  They will probably just take off and land with the A310, with a joystick and throttle, like a casual user would do.

As long as MS are happy with that everything will be great and I'm really looking forward to it.

I don't have any fears about ini not trying to deliver something as sophisticated as they possibly can, just that MS might not be aware of quite what that means they will be getting.

Edited July 1, 20223 yr by Matchstick

6 minutes ago, Matchstick said:

just that MS might not be aware of quite that means they will be getting.

Oh is that all? Well Jorg already confirmed that they know what they'll be getting from iniBuilds in the last Dev Q&A.

2 minutes ago, Krakin said:

Oh is that all? Well Jorg already confirmed that they know what they'll be getting from iniBuilds in the last Dev Q&A.

With all due respect I have very little faith personally in anything Jorg says actually having been understood by him.

Edited July 1, 20223 yr by Matchstick

3 minutes ago, Matchstick said:

With all due respect I have very little faith personally in anything Jorg says actually having been understood by him.

Ohhh you're not actually looking for clarification or proper understanding. You just want to push a certain narrative and stick to it. Thanks for clearing that up. I'll refrain from wasting my time further.

1 minute ago, Krakin said:

Ohhh you're not actually looking for clarification or proper understanding. You just want to push a certain narrative and stick to it. Thanks for clearing that up. I'll refrain from wasting my time further.

LOL, as I said before in that case please do block me now to avoid causing more upset.

Edited July 1, 20223 yr by Matchstick

Folks, it has already been confirmed that the systems of the MSFS version will not only be on par with the XP11 version, but will be an improved version of them, as they have been reworked. So, unless someone brings any statement made by some iniBuilds dev that implies the opposite of this, I consider this 'dumb down' theory debunked.

Honestly, I don't think the fact that default airplanes are 'dumb down' is a way for MS/Asobo to please casual gamers or that they have an eagerness to please these people. To me, they are like that because of money and effort. Can you imagine how much MSFS would cost if all default aircraft had a high level of complexity? Plus all the effort it would take to get them all at that level? Effort that would be taken from the development of the simulator's core elements, which are much more important than aircraft.

And it is also important to clarify that this aircraft is being developed by iniBuilds and not by Asobo. The fact that Microsoft licenses this aircraft and will bring it to MSFS for free is a golden opportunity to finally bring something highly complex to the simulator at no additional cost and please experienced simmers who want something complex and realistic. They would have to be extremely stupid to want a dumb down version and I doubt that iniBuilds would accept to tarnish their reputation with such a version.